5 ms·

This is imprisonment without conviction, no matter how you gussy it up. It's unsurprising. NYC elected a cop as mayor, and his only idea for solving the city's

by ahoy 4y ago

This is imprisonment without conviction, no matter how you gussy it up. It's unsurprising. NYC elected a cop as mayor, and his only idea for solving the city's problems is more policing. It hasn't worked in the past, and it won't work now, but the media and real estate classes here keep demanding it anyway.

asdff 4y ago
The alternative is these people continue to live and die on the street without care where they are frequently targeted for exploitation or abuse, not freedom
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  I would agree with you if I did not experience the "care" they calling to provide in these psychiatric for-profit hospitals. Let me tell you about abuse... Why not just give these people free housing with assisted care on location? If we can survive on the street we can surly survive in a residential setting. What will happen is they they will pump us full of drugs to sedate us and just keep sucking money out of the state and federal government so that these hospital owners can buy another house in Bermuda.
  - baremetal 4y ago
    you mention abuse, then don't give any examples. surely giving anti-psychotic drugs isn't tantamount to abuse in severe cases.
  - asdff 4y ago
    On the street gang members might force you to pimp yourself or sell drugs, and use your addiction to meth or fentanyl or threats to your life as their hold over you. They might light your tent on fire with you in it. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/07/tent-fires-are-on-the-rise-in-homeless-encampments-of-l-a-s-skid-row.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/07/tent-fires-are-o... For these people who have severe mental illness, free housing with assisted care on location looks a lot like a mental institution. Without oversight they are liable to walk out of care and be back on the street. For some homeless, that's how they are on the street today. They might have gotten a delusion that leads them from disappearing from their families, and sometimes they find them years later living on the streets in a state of complete dissociation with reality, other times they never find them.
  - tcj_phx 4y ago
    > What will happen is they they will pump us full of drugs to sedate us The agony induced by haloperidol was used by the Soviets to help their dissidents realize the gulags were much better places than the psycho prisons.
- jibbers 4y ago
  Surely there are other alternatives.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Propose them.
  - version_five 4y ago
    I hope you can appreciate how little value this kind of comment adds. I used to work with someone who would make this exact comment "surely there must be X" in discussions, and it is far less helpful than saying nothing. Either you have an option, or a criticism or some other insight, or you have nothing to add. "surely" means nothing.
  - tiahura 4y ago
    Your house.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
Without federal action for adequate funding for adequate mental healthcare providers nationwide, I do not see what other choice any state/county/city in the US could have. Same with healthcare or housing or any other population wide benefit policy where benefit recipients can migrate in and net payers into the system can migrate out.
ugh123 4y ago
So whats your solution to both 1) homelessness and 2) many homeless (not all) that menace pedestrians and businesses on a daily basis?
- FollowingTheDao 4y ago
  > So whats your solution to both 1) homelessness Houses. > many homeless (not all) that menace pedestrians and businesses on a daily basis? Houses. You see, the answer is simple but there is just no will to do it because people do not care about the mentally ill. We scare people for no reason but their own ignorance. I would say 90% of the mentally ill would have a great remission of their symptoms if they had stable housing. I am homeless, all I need is a simple fcking studio but even making a lot of money from disability I cannot afford one anymore and I get shut down by people who do not want to rent to me because I am on diability.
  - tiahura 4y ago
    Maybe it’s a dumb question, but why don’t you find 2 or 3 other people in your same situation and pool resources as roommates? 4 disability checks might be enough to allow you to afford a better home and landlord?
    - rmah 4y ago
      This may sound flippant but... Poor people who are not mentally ill often do exactly that. Even some drug addicts can sometimes get together to rent a place to crash. But we're talking about the severely mentally ill here. They are unable to band together. I imagine that this is sort of by definition... those who's mental illness illness is mild enough that they can help themselves by working together... just do it. The remaining are on the streets.
      - dionidium 4y ago
        But now we're full circle, because you're describing somebody who needs a lot more than just a government-provided house.
purpleblue 4y ago
It's getting help when they are mentally incapable of getting help for themselves. Do you honestly believe letting them suffer on the streets is better for them? If so, you're a monster.
djohnston 4y ago
It actually did work in the past. The reason cities are so overrun with homeless crazies these days is because we let them all out in the 80s and 90s.
taolegal 4y ago
> NYC elected a cop as mayor, and his only idea for solving the city's problems is more policing I don't notice much difference with him compared to de Blasio, except de Blasio was universally not liked. Adams is better but surprisingly by not much. > It hasn't worked in the past Considering the 70s were a complete mess & a generation afterwards it didn't feel like that, whatever happened in-between seems to have improved things. And that improvement definitely did come from police to some degree. Crime was at a historic low until recently with the advent of "defund."
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  Except few places have defunded their police. I would bet NYC has not. In many places it seems the cops are somewhere between understaffed and simply pouting and not doing their job unless it's exciting. Anecdote: I had about $2,500 of electronics stolen from my car on video in a parking lot, and the cop did not go back to check for full footage or imply anything would be done about it. Didn't even check to see if there were plates in the back of the car! By the way, "defund" was also about using some paramilitary police funding to fund social services and mental health calls like the ones that may be dealing with the people in this discussion. Finally, recall that "defund" kicked off at the same time as a global pandemic and major economic shock, an affordable housing shortage, a wage shortage and a drug epidemic.
  - taolegal 4y ago
    > the cops are somewhere between understaffed and simply pouting and not doing their job unless it's exciting so are you pro-worker or not (I suspect you are pro-worker), cause it sounds like you're hashing out anti-worker rhetoric against your enemies I hear this all the time from ppl, it's this automatic talking point that cops don't do their job, so we should just push dangerous slogans like defund - when cops are desperately needed in actually dangerous neighborhoods. It's a very privileged sentiment.
    - unethical_ban 4y ago
      There is a difference between an actual strike with specific demands, and "quiet quitting" as a police officer. What do police demand? From their unions, it seems they just want continued immunity from murder charges when they negligently kill citizens. If the rail workers threatening a strike had a history of disabling crossing guards on railroad crossings to hit cars without warning, and their union didn't want conductors to get fired for that, I'd be against the railroad union, too. Again, "defund", this scary slogan, attempted to wrap a lot of ideas up, most of which did not directly mean "eliminate the role of law enforcement". And, like I said and you failed to refute, substantial police budget cuts are quite sparse. So what's dangerous besides something that hasn't happened? What's dangerous other than cops quiet quitting to protest things that haven't happened?
dionidium 4y ago
> This is imprisonment without conviction, no matter how you gussy it up. This is begging the question. You have to explain why you think that's bad, not merely describe what's happening. Obviously you're assuming a shared sense that it's illegitimate to intern someone without a trial, but the whole point here is that some people think an exception should be made in this particular case. You're just reiterating the controversy.
bsder 4y ago
> This is imprisonment without conviction, no matter how you gussy it up. We could force the state to put these people in front of a judge or jury if you prefer. California does--and my experience is that these people seem to get reasonable aggressive representation from the state. It unfortunately won't change much. There aren't enough beds--that's the simple truth. So, this isn't going to put even a dent into the situation.
mancerayder 4y ago
This is sensationalism. There are people letting themselves rot on the streets, it's more than an inconvenience to the society, it's a danger to themselves. They're not going to voluntarily do anything in many cases. The trope about "the Mayor is a former cop" makes for good political talking points but it's meaningless otherwise. In what way has NYC become any different since Adams took the helm?

by ahoy 4y ago

asdff 4y ago

The alternative is these people continue to live and die on the street without care where they are frequently targeted for exploitation or abuse, not freedom

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
I would agree with you if I did not experience the "care" they calling to provide in these psychiatric for-profit hospitals. Let me tell you about abuse... Why not just give these people free housing with assisted care on location? If we can survive on the street we can surly survive in a residential setting. What will happen is they they will pump us full of drugs to sedate us and just keep sucking money out of the state and federal government so that these hospital owners can buy another house in Bermuda.
- baremetal 4y ago
  you mention abuse, then don't give any examples. surely giving anti-psychotic drugs isn't tantamount to abuse in severe cases.
- asdff 4y ago
  On the street gang members might force you to pimp yourself or sell drugs, and use your addiction to meth or fentanyl or threats to your life as their hold over you. They might light your tent on fire with you in it. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/07/tent-fires-are-on-the-rise-in-homeless-encampments-of-l-a-s-skid-row.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/07/tent-fires-are-o... For these people who have severe mental illness, free housing with assisted care on location looks a lot like a mental institution. Without oversight they are liable to walk out of care and be back on the street. For some homeless, that's how they are on the street today. They might have gotten a delusion that leads them from disappearing from their families, and sometimes they find them years later living on the streets in a state of complete dissociation with reality, other times they never find them.
- tcj_phx 4y ago
  > What will happen is they they will pump us full of drugs to sedate us The agony induced by haloperidol was used by the Soviets to help their dissidents realize the gulags were much better places than the psycho prisons.
jibbers 4y ago
Surely there are other alternatives.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Propose them.
- version_five 4y ago
  I hope you can appreciate how little value this kind of comment adds. I used to work with someone who would make this exact comment "surely there must be X" in discussions, and it is far less helpful than saying nothing. Either you have an option, or a criticism or some other insight, or you have nothing to add. "surely" means nothing.
- tiahura 4y ago
  Your house.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

Without federal action for adequate funding for adequate mental healthcare providers nationwide, I do not see what other choice any state/county/city in the US could have. Same with healthcare or housing or any other population wide benefit policy where benefit recipients can migrate in and net payers into the system can migrate out.

ugh123 4y ago

So whats your solution to both 1) homelessness and 2) many homeless (not all) that menace pedestrians and businesses on a daily basis?

FollowingTheDao 4y ago
> So whats your solution to both 1) homelessness Houses. > many homeless (not all) that menace pedestrians and businesses on a daily basis? Houses. You see, the answer is simple but there is just no will to do it because people do not care about the mentally ill. We scare people for no reason but their own ignorance. I would say 90% of the mentally ill would have a great remission of their symptoms if they had stable housing. I am homeless, all I need is a simple fcking studio but even making a lot of money from disability I cannot afford one anymore and I get shut down by people who do not want to rent to me because I am on diability.
- tiahura 4y ago
  Maybe it’s a dumb question, but why don’t you find 2 or 3 other people in your same situation and pool resources as roommates? 4 disability checks might be enough to allow you to afford a better home and landlord?
  - rmah 4y ago
    This may sound flippant but... Poor people who are not mentally ill often do exactly that. Even some drug addicts can sometimes get together to rent a place to crash. But we're talking about the severely mentally ill here. They are unable to band together. I imagine that this is sort of by definition... those who's mental illness illness is mild enough that they can help themselves by working together... just do it. The remaining are on the streets.
    - dionidium 4y ago
      But now we're full circle, because you're describing somebody who needs a lot more than just a government-provided house.

purpleblue 4y ago

It's getting help when they are mentally incapable of getting help for themselves. Do you honestly believe letting them suffer on the streets is better for them? If so, you're a monster.

djohnston 4y ago

It actually did work in the past. The reason cities are so overrun with homeless crazies these days is because we let them all out in the 80s and 90s.

taolegal 4y ago

> NYC elected a cop as mayor, and his only idea for solving the city's problems is more policing I don't notice much difference with him compared to de Blasio, except de Blasio was universally not liked. Adams is better but surprisingly by not much. > It hasn't worked in the past Considering the 70s were a complete mess & a generation afterwards it didn't feel like that, whatever happened in-between seems to have improved things. And that improvement definitely did come from police to some degree. Crime was at a historic low until recently with the advent of "defund."

unethical_ban 4y ago
Except few places have defunded their police. I would bet NYC has not. In many places it seems the cops are somewhere between understaffed and simply pouting and not doing their job unless it's exciting. Anecdote: I had about $2,500 of electronics stolen from my car on video in a parking lot, and the cop did not go back to check for full footage or imply anything would be done about it. Didn't even check to see if there were plates in the back of the car! By the way, "defund" was also about using some paramilitary police funding to fund social services and mental health calls like the ones that may be dealing with the people in this discussion. Finally, recall that "defund" kicked off at the same time as a global pandemic and major economic shock, an affordable housing shortage, a wage shortage and a drug epidemic.
- taolegal 4y ago
  > the cops are somewhere between understaffed and simply pouting and not doing their job unless it's exciting so are you pro-worker or not (I suspect you are pro-worker), cause it sounds like you're hashing out anti-worker rhetoric against your enemies I hear this all the time from ppl, it's this automatic talking point that cops don't do their job, so we should just push dangerous slogans like defund - when cops are desperately needed in actually dangerous neighborhoods. It's a very privileged sentiment.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    There is a difference between an actual strike with specific demands, and "quiet quitting" as a police officer. What do police demand? From their unions, it seems they just want continued immunity from murder charges when they negligently kill citizens. If the rail workers threatening a strike had a history of disabling crossing guards on railroad crossings to hit cars without warning, and their union didn't want conductors to get fired for that, I'd be against the railroad union, too. Again, "defund", this scary slogan, attempted to wrap a lot of ideas up, most of which did not directly mean "eliminate the role of law enforcement". And, like I said and you failed to refute, substantial police budget cuts are quite sparse. So what's dangerous besides something that hasn't happened? What's dangerous other than cops quiet quitting to protest things that haven't happened?

dionidium 4y ago

> This is imprisonment without conviction, no matter how you gussy it up. This is begging the question. You have to explain why you think that's bad, not merely describe what's happening. Obviously you're assuming a shared sense that it's illegitimate to intern someone without a trial, but the whole point here is that some people think an exception should be made in this particular case. You're just reiterating the controversy.

bsder 4y ago

> This is imprisonment without conviction, no matter how you gussy it up. We could force the state to put these people in front of a judge or jury if you prefer. California does--and my experience is that these people seem to get reasonable aggressive representation from the state. It unfortunately won't change much. There aren't enough beds--that's the simple truth. So, this isn't going to put even a dent into the situation.

mancerayder 4y ago

This is sensationalism. There are people letting themselves rot on the streets, it's more than an inconvenience to the society, it's a danger to themselves. They're not going to voluntarily do anything in many cases. The trope about "the Mayor is a former cop" makes for good political talking points but it's meaningless otherwise. In what way has NYC become any different since Adams took the helm?