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Can't read WSJ, but I suspect "who will pay for them?" and "where will the power come from and how will it get there?" are key questions that remain unanswered.

Can't read WSJ, but I suspect "who will pay for them?" and "where will the power come from and how will it get there?" are key questions that remain unanswered. There's a lot of cars in the States, and I'm not sure they have the MW needed to handle replacing them with EV as well as keeping cool/warm. Personally, I'm not thrilled by having to change "gas-and-go" with "wait-to-charge". I worry there will be quite the wait time on the major freeways due to load and the limited access.

db48x 4y ago
I don’t think it will be a huge problem. Most drivers would rarely need to visit a charging station because they can charge their car overnight or at work as the car sits parked and unused. It’s only when you are driving more than ~100 miles per day that you start needing to use a faster charging system, so most people would only need to visit a charging station when they go on a road trip. Since commuters aren’t visiting charging stations regularly, I think that if we really go 100% electric then most gas stations will simply vanish rather than be replaced with charging stations.
- beardyw 4y ago
  > because they can charge their car overnight or at work as the car sits parked and unused. I wonder how universally true this is. My guess is that the rich will have no problems, the poor will struggle, and all points between.
  - db48x 4y ago
    The standard 110V 15A power available in every home and apartment in America can supply 1.5kW of power. If you leave your car plugged in for 10 hours, that’s 15kWh. A Tesla Model 3 gets about 4 miles per kWh, so that’s almost 60 miles of range. If your commute is less than 30 miles there and 30 miles back, then you never need to visit a charging station, and you probably don’t have to call an electrician to install anything either. There is a problem with many older apartment buildings which don’t have a power outlet near every single parking space, but that is a relatively simple problem to solve; electricians add and move power outlets every day of the year. If your commute is longer than that, then maybe you should talk your boss into installing power outlets for the parking spaces at your work, or you can use the 220V 30A outlets that your washing machine and dryer are plugged in to. Those can give you double the range in the same amount of time. Of course, not all apartments have 220V outlets; many apartment buildings get 3–phase power from the power company and then give each apartment just a single phase. That’s annoying, but not insurmountable. I would wager that the number of people that need more than 120 miles per day is very small. Not zero, of course. I know a guy who drives 200+ miles per day as a selling imported Italian foodstuffs to restaurants, for example. Edit: oops, 220V 30A circuits can give you quadruple the range, not double. I forgot to multiply. Even my friend the Italian food salesman can make his daily rounds on an overnight charge from that.
    - beardyw 4y ago
      I wonder how these folks will charge their Tesla? https://www.medpagetoday.com/publichealthpolicy/healthpolicy/93695 https://www.medpagetoday.com/publichealthpolicy/healthpolicy...
      - db48x 4y ago
        By running a power cord out to their car. But if we really do end up going 100% electric, I can see cities setting up on–street charging as a service to their residents. We’ll start seeing parking meters that have EV–charging cables for plugging in your car.
        jleyank 4y ago
        Hope you’re right, as I can see cities making sole-source contracts with companies to providing charging stations where residents can pay for charging their vehicles. Then, the fight will be this vs in home service (think cable vs over the air).
      - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
        I'd be more interested in how they managed to afford their Tesla. I sure wouldn't mind a Tesla but I can't get a working used one for $1,200 like I did with an ICE car.
        db48x 4y ago
        FWIW, I only used Tesla as an example because I happened to remember their approximate efficiency in miles/kWh. There are less expensive options, and over time the used prices should fall as well so hopefully that is only a short–term problem.
- asdff 4y ago
  Some people have to streetpark their cars sometimes not close to their place, and others might park in an apartment garage where the landlord is not interested in investing into their property any more than the letter of the law demands. That being said, I've seen cars parked in driveways with a huge extension cord running into a partially closed window in their house. These rickety setups make me imagine it won't be long before some idiot teenager runs up the block at night unplugging every ev they see as a prank, screwing everyone for work the next day.
  - creaturemachine 4y ago
    Anywhere outside of safe suburbia the copper thieves will make off with them in short order.
  - db48x 4y ago
    All EVs can lock the charging cable so that it cannot be unplugged without unlocking the car. This type of prank is just not a problem.
    - colejohnson66 4y ago
      Extension cords defeat that protection. Just unplug the car’s adapter cable from said extension cord.
      - db48x 4y ago
        No one is forced to use an extension cord; long charging cables exist. In fact, you should avoid using an extension cord here because a lot of cheap ones cannot actually carry the full 1.5kW without melting because the manufacturer wanted to hit a lower price point. See also the price of copper.
- hcknwscommenter 4y ago
  Already, at my work, even under work-from-home, all the EV charging stations are filled if you get in after 8 am.
  - asdff 4y ago
    Plus if you get someone with a gas car parking in there, its probably going to take a minute for a tow truck to come out and haul them away (if the garage even has such an arrangement). I know in California those "compact" car spaces are routinely ignored by everyone with a huge hulking SUV, even if it means they seemingly had to crawl out of the sunroof to get out of their tank of a vehicle.
    - hcknwscommenter 4y ago
      I find that in general, the phenomenon of people parking non-EV cars in EV charging spots has gotten a lot better. I think this probably has a lot to do with the massive increase in tow-away signs I see at these spots. To me, and probably most others, a tow-away is massively worse than almost any fine you are likely to see.
- rurp 4y ago
  Current EV owner demographics overlap a lot with those who own a house with plenty of space, but if EVs ever become the standard this problem will get much worse. A large percent of car owners don't garage park and won't have easy access to charging at night. I couldn't find a precise stat for this, but it's likely a majority of car owners fall in this group. Half of drivers needing to spend 30+ minutes at a charging station each week is a huge ownership burden and will strain even a large charging network. Sure a few progressive urban areas will add charging to work and apartment spaces, but I can't imagine that being the norm and it still won't help areas with street parking. It would require huge spending from most landlords; a group that's not exactly known for happily taking on large discretionary expenses.
  - db48x 4y ago
    A single 110V outlet per parking space is not a “huge” cost, no matter who pays for it. It’s not nothing, but it's cheap enough that I suspect that it will happen everywhere eventually. Most apartment owners are not actually averse to such improvements, as long as they can ensure the work is done correctly. I was able to get the electrical wiring in my apartment improved. All I had to do was ask nicely and let them hire their own contractor on their own schedule. It would have been nice to have the work done sooner, but I can definitely understand their point of view.
    - rurp 4y ago
      An outlet isn't terribly hard to add in a house, but I'm thinking about large open parking lots and garages where there is no wiring to hook into. Adding any kind of plug to spaces like this is going to require things like digging up asphalt and installing new structures. Is it doable? Yeah, sure, in affluent areas with sufficient demand. I think EV adoption will continue to grow at a decent rate in these sorts of areas. Beyond those spots though, charging issues will be a significant barrier.
      - db48x 4y ago
        Yes, some places will be easier to retrofit than others. Big parking garages are surprisingly easy, because you can run armored conduit along the walls. Most apartment complexes won’t be that bad, because the parking and the buildings tend to be near each other and the outlets can be placed along the walls of the buildings (but more care does need to be taken when there are sidewalks between the cars and the buildings, which is not uncommon). Giant parking lots at malls and stadiums are the worst, as you point out. Nobody lives at a mall or a stadium though, so it’ll be fine if they don’t have EV charging at every spot.
asdff 4y ago
This, along with however road taxes are to be paid for without gasoline taxes will be the ugly truth about EVs that few want to answer. Right now they are severely undertaxed, to the point where if they were taxed at the full rate they should be for both road wear and for local government to roll out and maintain EV charging infrastructure, registration fees might end up being enormous. Imagine if you are broke and it cost $2000 a year to register an EV versus $100 to register your $2000 ancient honda civic, that's an easy choice to make for a lot of people.
- milkytron 4y ago
  > This, along with however road taxes are to be paid for without gasoline taxes will be the ugly truth about EVs that few want to answer. Few politicians want to touch the topic, but really what makes sense is a VMT and GVWR tax. If you use a vehicle to travel more, you get taxed more. If that vehicle weighs more, you get taxed more. Odometers at registration/inspection time and vehicle make/model can provide this information. However this is politically unpopular, because it punishes behavior that has become widely accepted (traveling exclusively by car, owning larger cars/trucks) in the US and distributes the cost of infrastructure maintenance to those that use it more.
  - com2kid 4y ago
    > However this is politically unpopular, because it punishes behavior that has become widely accepted (traveling exclusively by car, owning larger cars/trucks) in the US and distributes the cost of infrastructure maintenance to those that use it more. It is also a regressive tax. Living close to work in a modern city is a luxury, and housing close to mass transit is much more expensive than housing far away from any such amenities.
    - milkytron 4y ago
      It is, yes. But by accurately associating the costs of such infrastructure maintenance closely to those that cause it, people might actually realize that we're building our urban environments terribly inefficiently. People can carpool, older cars are lighter (less tax because lighter weight), and look for alternatives and demand them. We should be encouraging that behavior instead of incentivizing financially, environmentally, socially, and health destructive ways of transporting ourselves.
Tagbert 4y ago
Many people overestimate how much power EVs draw from the electrical grid. Yes, we will need to increase power production to the grid as EV use grows over the next couple of decades but EVs are not pushing grids over now and will be the huge problem you are suggesting. “Though California has more electric cars than any other state, they make up just .4% of all energy consumption during peak hours. Even at 2030 estimates, some 5.6 million electric cars, trucks, and vans would only comprise 4% of peak loads.” https://www.autoblog.com/2022/10/16/electric-cars-power-grid/ https://www.autoblog.com/2022/10/16/electric-cars-power-grid...

db48x 4y ago

I don’t think it will be a huge problem. Most drivers would rarely need to visit a charging station because they can charge their car overnight or at work as the car sits parked and unused. It’s only when you are driving more than ~100 miles per day that you start needing to use a faster charging system, so most people would only need to visit a charging station when they go on a road trip. Since commuters aren’t visiting charging stations regularly, I think that if we really go 100% electric then most gas stations will simply vanish rather than be replaced with charging stations.

beardyw 4y ago
> because they can charge their car overnight or at work as the car sits parked and unused. I wonder how universally true this is. My guess is that the rich will have no problems, the poor will struggle, and all points between.
- db48x 4y ago
  The standard 110V 15A power available in every home and apartment in America can supply 1.5kW of power. If you leave your car plugged in for 10 hours, that’s 15kWh. A Tesla Model 3 gets about 4 miles per kWh, so that’s almost 60 miles of range. If your commute is less than 30 miles there and 30 miles back, then you never need to visit a charging station, and you probably don’t have to call an electrician to install anything either. There is a problem with many older apartment buildings which don’t have a power outlet near every single parking space, but that is a relatively simple problem to solve; electricians add and move power outlets every day of the year. If your commute is longer than that, then maybe you should talk your boss into installing power outlets for the parking spaces at your work, or you can use the 220V 30A outlets that your washing machine and dryer are plugged in to. Those can give you double the range in the same amount of time. Of course, not all apartments have 220V outlets; many apartment buildings get 3–phase power from the power company and then give each apartment just a single phase. That’s annoying, but not insurmountable. I would wager that the number of people that need more than 120 miles per day is very small. Not zero, of course. I know a guy who drives 200+ miles per day as a selling imported Italian foodstuffs to restaurants, for example. Edit: oops, 220V 30A circuits can give you quadruple the range, not double. I forgot to multiply. Even my friend the Italian food salesman can make his daily rounds on an overnight charge from that.
  - beardyw 4y ago
    I wonder how these folks will charge their Tesla? https://www.medpagetoday.com/publichealthpolicy/healthpolicy/93695 https://www.medpagetoday.com/publichealthpolicy/healthpolicy...
    - db48x 4y ago
      By running a power cord out to their car. But if we really do end up going 100% electric, I can see cities setting up on–street charging as a service to their residents. We’ll start seeing parking meters that have EV–charging cables for plugging in your car.
      - jleyank 4y ago
        Hope you’re right, as I can see cities making sole-source contracts with companies to providing charging stations where residents can pay for charging their vehicles. Then, the fight will be this vs in home service (think cable vs over the air).
    - BenjiWiebe 4y ago
      I'd be more interested in how they managed to afford their Tesla. I sure wouldn't mind a Tesla but I can't get a working used one for $1,200 like I did with an ICE car.
      - db48x 4y ago
        FWIW, I only used Tesla as an example because I happened to remember their approximate efficiency in miles/kWh. There are less expensive options, and over time the used prices should fall as well so hopefully that is only a short–term problem.
asdff 4y ago
Some people have to streetpark their cars sometimes not close to their place, and others might park in an apartment garage where the landlord is not interested in investing into their property any more than the letter of the law demands. That being said, I've seen cars parked in driveways with a huge extension cord running into a partially closed window in their house. These rickety setups make me imagine it won't be long before some idiot teenager runs up the block at night unplugging every ev they see as a prank, screwing everyone for work the next day.
- creaturemachine 4y ago
  Anywhere outside of safe suburbia the copper thieves will make off with them in short order.
- db48x 4y ago
  All EVs can lock the charging cable so that it cannot be unplugged without unlocking the car. This type of prank is just not a problem.
  - colejohnson66 4y ago
    Extension cords defeat that protection. Just unplug the car’s adapter cable from said extension cord.
    - db48x 4y ago
      No one is forced to use an extension cord; long charging cables exist. In fact, you should avoid using an extension cord here because a lot of cheap ones cannot actually carry the full 1.5kW without melting because the manufacturer wanted to hit a lower price point. See also the price of copper.
hcknwscommenter 4y ago
Already, at my work, even under work-from-home, all the EV charging stations are filled if you get in after 8 am.
- asdff 4y ago
  Plus if you get someone with a gas car parking in there, its probably going to take a minute for a tow truck to come out and haul them away (if the garage even has such an arrangement). I know in California those "compact" car spaces are routinely ignored by everyone with a huge hulking SUV, even if it means they seemingly had to crawl out of the sunroof to get out of their tank of a vehicle.
  - hcknwscommenter 4y ago
    I find that in general, the phenomenon of people parking non-EV cars in EV charging spots has gotten a lot better. I think this probably has a lot to do with the massive increase in tow-away signs I see at these spots. To me, and probably most others, a tow-away is massively worse than almost any fine you are likely to see.
rurp 4y ago
Current EV owner demographics overlap a lot with those who own a house with plenty of space, but if EVs ever become the standard this problem will get much worse. A large percent of car owners don't garage park and won't have easy access to charging at night. I couldn't find a precise stat for this, but it's likely a majority of car owners fall in this group. Half of drivers needing to spend 30+ minutes at a charging station each week is a huge ownership burden and will strain even a large charging network. Sure a few progressive urban areas will add charging to work and apartment spaces, but I can't imagine that being the norm and it still won't help areas with street parking. It would require huge spending from most landlords; a group that's not exactly known for happily taking on large discretionary expenses.
- db48x 4y ago
  A single 110V outlet per parking space is not a “huge” cost, no matter who pays for it. It’s not nothing, but it's cheap enough that I suspect that it will happen everywhere eventually. Most apartment owners are not actually averse to such improvements, as long as they can ensure the work is done correctly. I was able to get the electrical wiring in my apartment improved. All I had to do was ask nicely and let them hire their own contractor on their own schedule. It would have been nice to have the work done sooner, but I can definitely understand their point of view.
  - rurp 4y ago
    An outlet isn't terribly hard to add in a house, but I'm thinking about large open parking lots and garages where there is no wiring to hook into. Adding any kind of plug to spaces like this is going to require things like digging up asphalt and installing new structures. Is it doable? Yeah, sure, in affluent areas with sufficient demand. I think EV adoption will continue to grow at a decent rate in these sorts of areas. Beyond those spots though, charging issues will be a significant barrier.
    - db48x 4y ago
      Yes, some places will be easier to retrofit than others. Big parking garages are surprisingly easy, because you can run armored conduit along the walls. Most apartment complexes won’t be that bad, because the parking and the buildings tend to be near each other and the outlets can be placed along the walls of the buildings (but more care does need to be taken when there are sidewalks between the cars and the buildings, which is not uncommon). Giant parking lots at malls and stadiums are the worst, as you point out. Nobody lives at a mall or a stadium though, so it’ll be fine if they don’t have EV charging at every spot.

asdff 4y ago

This, along with however road taxes are to be paid for without gasoline taxes will be the ugly truth about EVs that few want to answer. Right now they are severely undertaxed, to the point where if they were taxed at the full rate they should be for both road wear and for local government to roll out and maintain EV charging infrastructure, registration fees might end up being enormous. Imagine if you are broke and it cost $2000 a year to register an EV versus $100 to register your $2000 ancient honda civic, that's an easy choice to make for a lot of people.

milkytron 4y ago
> This, along with however road taxes are to be paid for without gasoline taxes will be the ugly truth about EVs that few want to answer. Few politicians want to touch the topic, but really what makes sense is a VMT and GVWR tax. If you use a vehicle to travel more, you get taxed more. If that vehicle weighs more, you get taxed more. Odometers at registration/inspection time and vehicle make/model can provide this information. However this is politically unpopular, because it punishes behavior that has become widely accepted (traveling exclusively by car, owning larger cars/trucks) in the US and distributes the cost of infrastructure maintenance to those that use it more.
- com2kid 4y ago
  > However this is politically unpopular, because it punishes behavior that has become widely accepted (traveling exclusively by car, owning larger cars/trucks) in the US and distributes the cost of infrastructure maintenance to those that use it more. It is also a regressive tax. Living close to work in a modern city is a luxury, and housing close to mass transit is much more expensive than housing far away from any such amenities.
  - milkytron 4y ago
    It is, yes. But by accurately associating the costs of such infrastructure maintenance closely to those that cause it, people might actually realize that we're building our urban environments terribly inefficiently. People can carpool, older cars are lighter (less tax because lighter weight), and look for alternatives and demand them. We should be encouraging that behavior instead of incentivizing financially, environmentally, socially, and health destructive ways of transporting ourselves.

Tagbert 4y ago

Many people overestimate how much power EVs draw from the electrical grid. Yes, we will need to increase power production to the grid as EV use grows over the next couple of decades but EVs are not pushing grids over now and will be the huge problem you are suggesting. “Though California has more electric cars than any other state, they make up just .4% of all energy consumption during peak hours. Even at 2030 estimates, some 5.6 million electric cars, trucks, and vans would only comprise 4% of peak loads.” https://www.autoblog.com/2022/10/16/electric-cars-power-grid/ https://www.autoblog.com/2022/10/16/electric-cars-power-grid...