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I become wary any time someone utters the phrase, "show me the data" or any variation there of. There is a specific type of leader who thinks that within the da

I become wary any time someone utters the phrase, "show me the data" or any variation there of. There is a specific type of leader who thinks that within the data lurks a magical solution just waiting to be discovered. There is also the leader who uses data as a trump card to win arguments and these folks are perhaps even worse. This is not new. The origination of the phrase, "lies, damned lies, and statistics," can be traced to the 1800s. I propose the following update: There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, and data I am being glib, I of course do not think all data is inconsequential, rather it is more often used from a place of ignorance or a place of ill intent it is rendered, on the whole, useless.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
I have only heard “show me the data” when someone wants someone else to support a claim. I do not see why this would necessarily be a bad thing.
- fn-mote 4y ago
  It's BS because the people asking for the data do not have the sophistication to actually do a reasonable _analysis_ of the data. Or criticize an existing analysis. Unfortunately, as many posters here are pointing out, there's plenty of ways to do a correct-looking analysis of the data to get evidence to support your agenda. Maybe your agenda is right and maybe it's not, but I'd love to hear a story of someone standing up and saying "your consultant submitted a report with glaring flaws, they should not be paid and you should reconsider X." It's more likely the little company just goes out of business or the big company buries the failure.
  - ifyoubuildit 4y ago
    So whats the alternative? "Just trust me"?
    - yunwal 4y ago
      The alternative is to trust in most circumstances (you did hire me after all), and do thorough analysis once in a while as a gut check.
      - ifyoubuildit 4y ago
        And how do you do that thorough analysis without asking to see the data?
        yunwal 4y ago
        The person above wasn’t complaining about data science as a whole, they were complaining about data science theater. The scenario where as long as you put some numbers in your bosses face, they could care less what the real implications are. In cases where you’re doing thorough analysis, you should look for the data yourself, rather than ask someone to market it to you
- nindalf 4y ago
  GP was asked to support their claims with data and didn’t like it.
- giaour 4y ago
  The issue is more that the kind of executive who says "show me the data" is often not numerate enough to understand the limitations of the data set in front of them. (Maybe the solution they see in the data has a tiny effect size or is too likely to be statistical noise; maybe the intuitive conclusion is demonstrably wrong once you apply a Bayesian approach.) A typical VP will have an MBA and maybe took statistics in high school.
- thinkharderdev 4y ago
  > I have only heard “show me the data” when someone wants someone else to support a claim. I've heard it a lot in situations where somebody is demanding a level of rigor that they themselves do not live up to. This is usually soon after they have framed the conversation around a solution that they want to pursue that also lacks any supporting data. That is to say, being data driven is on net good but it can also just be a thinly veiled appeal to status quo bias (which is itself not a terrible heuristic) or "highest-paid-person-in-the-room" bias.
  - etempleton 4y ago
    This is exactly what I am referring to. I am not talking about in the instance of claim verification. I have seen a number of instances where a leader just wants to see data. Not any specific data, just all of the data. There is a belief that data can solve problems if only they had enough of it.
scottLobster 4y ago
Yep, these are the same people who backtest their portfolio and go "see, if you'd held this exact portfolio I put together through trial and error, you'd have turned one dollar into a million without any additional contributions!" Not a data scientist, but it seems like a lot of people in business refuse to accept the fact that reality is generally boring, best practices are often "best" for a reason, and meaningful progress is hard. Of course it is possible to be too conservative, but 95% of ideas to improve a business or product are ego-stroking bullshit. Everyone wants the V10 engine to go down the highway at 65 mph, while towing a trailer, and there's only budget for an oil change every 15000 miles; don't look at the transmission fluid, just don't look.
naijaboiler 4y ago
if you torture data long enough, it will confess to anything

lotsofpulp 4y ago

I have only heard “show me the data” when someone wants someone else to support a claim. I do not see why this would necessarily be a bad thing.

fn-mote 4y ago
It's BS because the people asking for the data do not have the sophistication to actually do a reasonable _analysis_ of the data. Or criticize an existing analysis. Unfortunately, as many posters here are pointing out, there's plenty of ways to do a correct-looking analysis of the data to get evidence to support your agenda. Maybe your agenda is right and maybe it's not, but I'd love to hear a story of someone standing up and saying "your consultant submitted a report with glaring flaws, they should not be paid and you should reconsider X." It's more likely the little company just goes out of business or the big company buries the failure.
- ifyoubuildit 4y ago
  So whats the alternative? "Just trust me"?
  - yunwal 4y ago
    The alternative is to trust in most circumstances (you did hire me after all), and do thorough analysis once in a while as a gut check.
    - ifyoubuildit 4y ago
      And how do you do that thorough analysis without asking to see the data?
      - yunwal 4y ago
        The person above wasn’t complaining about data science as a whole, they were complaining about data science theater. The scenario where as long as you put some numbers in your bosses face, they could care less what the real implications are. In cases where you’re doing thorough analysis, you should look for the data yourself, rather than ask someone to market it to you
nindalf 4y ago
GP was asked to support their claims with data and didn’t like it.
giaour 4y ago
The issue is more that the kind of executive who says "show me the data" is often not numerate enough to understand the limitations of the data set in front of them. (Maybe the solution they see in the data has a tiny effect size or is too likely to be statistical noise; maybe the intuitive conclusion is demonstrably wrong once you apply a Bayesian approach.) A typical VP will have an MBA and maybe took statistics in high school.
thinkharderdev 4y ago
> I have only heard “show me the data” when someone wants someone else to support a claim. I've heard it a lot in situations where somebody is demanding a level of rigor that they themselves do not live up to. This is usually soon after they have framed the conversation around a solution that they want to pursue that also lacks any supporting data. That is to say, being data driven is on net good but it can also just be a thinly veiled appeal to status quo bias (which is itself not a terrible heuristic) or "highest-paid-person-in-the-room" bias.
- etempleton 4y ago
  This is exactly what I am referring to. I am not talking about in the instance of claim verification. I have seen a number of instances where a leader just wants to see data. Not any specific data, just all of the data. There is a belief that data can solve problems if only they had enough of it.

scottLobster 4y ago

Yep, these are the same people who backtest their portfolio and go "see, if you'd held this exact portfolio I put together through trial and error, you'd have turned one dollar into a million without any additional contributions!" Not a data scientist, but it seems like a lot of people in business refuse to accept the fact that reality is generally boring, best practices are often "best" for a reason, and meaningful progress is hard. Of course it is possible to be too conservative, but 95% of ideas to improve a business or product are ego-stroking bullshit. Everyone wants the V10 engine to go down the highway at 65 mph, while towing a trailer, and there's only budget for an oil change every 15000 miles; don't look at the transmission fluid, just don't look.

naijaboiler 4y ago

if you torture data long enough, it will confess to anything