9 ms·

Oceanic+ on the Apple Watch Ultra and the perils of subscription based software

29 points by kh_hk 4y ago

ilyt 4y ago
How dare they put features behind money on an app in my overpriced Apple ecosystem, truly horrendous.
DieBruderBauer 4y ago
https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=57 https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=57 The libre/open app issue has been brought up by Apple nay-sayers for time immemorial; Steve Job's response is brilliant here, frankly quite timeless and ultimately (in my view) apropos. "You've gotta start from the customer experience and work backwards to the technology."
- bombolo 4y ago
  > "You've gotta start from the customer experience and work backwards to the technology." I think they started by putting a pressure sensor and worked forward to making an app.
dewey 4y ago
> Apple is not a dive computer company. They sell computers. Other dive computer brands also sell computers, but these are not general purpose. Apple is not a [phone|watch|camera] company. They sell computers. That's what people said at every single new product that's not in their classic computer product line. Turns out you can get pretty good at products outside your initial niche, and for most people it will be more than good enough. If you ask most regular people to classify Apple they would probably say "phone company", and by revenue share they would be correct. There's a reason they renamed themselves from "Apple Computers Inc." to just Apple.
- bombolo 4y ago
  > Turns out you can get pretty good at products outside your initial niche, and for most people it will be more than good enough. dive computers are used in an activity that can kill you. A "you're holding it wrong" flaw could result in death rather than missed calls.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > A "you're holding it wrong" flaw could result in death rather than missed calls How many people were affected by this, and is this comparable to the failure rate of the dive computer you implicitly trust? Quick Googling: --- start quote --- From our internal information and industry connections, the failure rates we have seen over the expected service lifetime of a computer vary from 0.5% to 50%, based on the brand and model. And don't think that any particular brand makes you safe. For example, while Suunto is generally a reliable brand, the early D3 was a disaster in terms of failure rates. The Stinger on the other hand was very reliable. --- end quote --- 50% failure rate. For an activity that can kill you. Imagine if these companies were under the same scrutiny as Apple. Or for example [2] --- start quote --- I bought the computer in February 2018 March 2019, the straps + mount started rotting away April 2019 - software error E6 Enter the Bluetooth connection issues... November 2021 - E37 error! July 2022 - button loose (?!), computer floods, game over... --- end quote --- Or a settlement [3] "Suunto settles scary scuba screwup for $50m: 'Faulty' dive computer hardware and software put explorers in peril" [1] https://scubaboard.com/community/threads/dive-computers-failure-rates.226196/post-4277909 https://scubaboard.com/community/threads/dive-computers-fail... [2] https://scubaboard.com/community/threads/experience-report-scubapro-aladin-sport-matrix-a-great-computer-but.624991/ https://scubaboard.com/community/threads/experience-report-s... [3] https://www.theregister.com/2018/12/19/suunto_scuba_screwup/ https://www.theregister.com/2018/12/19/suunto_scuba_screwup/
    - bombolo 4y ago
      > How many people were affected by this, and is this comparable to the failure rate of the dive computer you implicitly trust? No idea. All the owners of that model of iphone. I have no clue how many units were sold. How is that important? Failure rate talk is a 14yrs old post from a manufacturer that used to make dive computers but has stopped. Let's ignore that until a better source is given. 2nd link: some contaminant is destroying the computer… I'm sure apple™plastic™ is no more resistant than regular plastic. The bluetooth is not a life threatening issue. The software issues are indeed worrying. In any event, those are companies that have sold millions of units. Diving with the apple watch is so costly (hardware + subscription) that few rich hobbyists will do that, and no professional diver. I'm sure failures and issues will come out, but not in the same numbers, because the heavy users can buy 2 dive computers to have redundancy and still spend less than how much it costs doing it with apple.
- seydor 4y ago
  It's more of a gadget fashion/lifestyle brand now. Wearables are a good fit for their target audience. Desktops, servers, or anything that's not on public display, not so much.
  - CaptainZapp 4y ago
    You don't want a gadget or anything fashionable when you go scuba diving. You want an instrument, which can be ugly and boring but needs to be absolutely reliable. Anything else can literally kill you.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  I don't think they sell computers either- they sell end-user computing appliances.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bombolo 4y ago
I'm a diver, not technical but I've done deep and nitrox. The cost of the subscription seems insane. If you plan to do more than 20 dives in your lifetime, buying a dive computer seems way more convenient than this. The free plan is completely useless for scuba diving.
- Tepix 4y ago
  Amen. I might be interested in getting the Apple Watch Ultra (mainly for diving) but not if it involves a subscription.
- davedx 4y ago
  Please explain how $80/year is insane?
  - CaptainZapp 4y ago
    Leaving aside the price of the watch I can get a dive computer for 200$ +. That's for me to own never having to pay a subscription fee.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    Apparently a decent starter dive computer runs $300-400. $400 = $80 * 5 And with the dedicated option you have a purpose built device and something you can resell.
    - CaptainZapp 4y ago
      Depending on what you're looking for you can get a perfectly suitable dive computer for 200$. If you need an example: Look at the Cressi Goa. But there are other examples in this price range.
      - mcphage 4y ago
        Why would you pay for a subscription in months you're not going diving? You don't need to sign up for the yearly subscription if you only do it a few times a year. Just pay for those days or months.
hnbear 4y ago
Also: yesterdays discussion on the original Apple press release: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33774685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33774685
ploum 4y ago
Like always, Apple isn’t innovating but pretending to be. Garmin released the Descent Mk i 5 years ago : a smartwatch which also does diving. Really great watch (I’m a freediver myself and it does what I want it and, most importantly, does not have a touch screen, something I hate and can’t imagine using under water while holding my breath). How is Apple different? Marketing, as always. But nothing new under the sun.
- LtWorf 4y ago
  Ah that's a good point… touchscreens don't work when wet.
- kh_hk 4y ago
  Can you write apps for the Descent Mk?
  - ploum 4y ago
    Yes. The app store is called "Connect IQ".
    - kh_hk 4y ago
      Are you sure you can write apps that act as a diving app for the Garmin?
      - ploum 4y ago
        As soon as it goes below a certain depth, the watch is locked to use the "official garmin diving app". This is explained to prevent entering in any other app in the middle of a dive. I feel that the apple watch will be doing something similar (if only to lock the touchscreen under the water).
        kh_hk 4y ago
        I was under the impression that this was not the case, since the pressure and other information seems to be available on their SDK docuementation See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coremotion/cmwatersubmersionmeasurement https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coremotion/cmwater... If this was locked to use only by the Oceanic app this wouldn't be such a big deal to me at least.
xrd 4y ago
I visited Dubrovnik, Croatia about 20 years ago. When I got into the taxi, the driver was very excited to tell me about how locals would throw dynamite into the water to blow up the fish, though I never verified the truth of that. It made me pause because I wanted to go diving there. I ended up going diving, and it was quite an experience (https://web.archive.org/web/20020505185554/http://www.bytravelers.com/journal/entry/37 https://web.archive.org/web/20020505185554/http://www.bytrav...). The owner of the dive company didn't seem to know about decompression stops, generally. We went to about 30 meters for a short moment, saw a few hollowed out German WWII mines at the bottom, then ascended into a cave at sea level, nary a decompression stop on the way. Climbing up and down the rocky stairs of Dubrovnik later that day I had the worst headache. I had a flight the next day and wondered if it was a good idea to go up to 30,000 feet. I'm still alive, so it must have been the right decision. I'm saddened to think people using dive computers will never get to experience the richness of my dive experiences because the algorithm will tell them not to go into that cave with Anton from Dubrovnik.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >the driver was very excited to tell me about how locals would throw dynamite into the water to blow up the fish Wait, seriously?! I though that was some South Park/Borat humour.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    It's very much a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_fishing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_fishing
  - e1g 4y ago
    Can confirm - I did that as a child (with my uncles) in another soviet country. That, and electrofishing by tasing those poor Nemos. To this day I don’t know why we used those methods, but it was mad fun. Maybe literally.
    - xrd 4y ago
      Did you stuff the dynamite into the fish? That is what Borin told me these guys did. Then, you throw the fish into the water? At that point, their fishy friends come up and say "Jeez Svetlana, you looked bloated!" And, then BOOM, the fish all fly out of the water given the large blast zone.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
McDyver 4y ago
> Apple is behind the first general purpose programmable dive computer Unless Apple got into it before Heinrichs Weikamp and the OSTC [1] This is an Open Source dive computer, that is extremely well regarded in the technical diving world. The firmware is open source and there is a "big" community, considering the niche market. Unless apple came up with a new decompression algorithm that will model how tissues load and offgas, all you need are tables, a bottom timer a depth gauge and to follow your plan (with contingency for depth and time). Blindly following a computer will get you in trouble if it fails during the dive. [1] https://heinrichsweikamp.com/ https://heinrichsweikamp.com/
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kh_hk 4y ago
  Just added that to the article. I do not see the OSTC as a general purpose programmable dive computer (under my own definition, that is).
- jitl 4y ago
  Here is their decompression implementation: https://code.heinrichsweikamp.com/public/hwos_code/file/bc214815deb2/src/p2_deco.c https://code.heinrichsweikamp.com/public/hwos_code/file/bc21... I went looking for this a few months ago and couldn’t find it, so I’m happy to finally have it. It’s quite well commented.
microtherion 4y ago
I had assumed that the "diving" feature of the Apple Watch Ultra was mostly aspirational. Is there any research on what percentage of Omega Seamaster owners have ever used them on a dive?
jitl 4y ago
I played around a bit with SwiftUI and the dive monitoring APIs in the hopes of writing an open source dive computer for the Apple Watch. I spent all my evening hacking hours on my last trip learning UI layout and not much time figuring out decompression algorithms. I might pick up the project the next time I go diving. My repo here shows some use of Apple’s APIs: https://github.com/justjake/Trieste https://github.com/justjake/Trieste
fjwolski 4y ago
1) IMHO huge deal with the dive computers is the screen type, all lower-end dive computers have same old LCD displays which have the drawback of being invisible if it's dark (wreck, cave, night, or just poor visibility water diving). Most of them have some sort of backlight, but you have to trigger that with a button, which can be dangerous. Seems like computers with OLED screen, which are always visible, start closer to the price tag of Apple Watch 2) I think the author is overselling the "you don't need that much information" point - comparison of Scubapro in dive mode vs Apple Watch in safety stop mode is apples to oranges. During a (recreational, no deco) dive you need exactly these 4 pieces of information that are displayed on the Scubapro: time, depth, no-deco time, and tank pressure (and if the last one is missing it's not because it's not important, it's because you don't have remote pressure gauge which is a separate piece of hardware, and instead you need to frequently reach for a separate pressure gauge that's physically attached to the tank). To be fair I'm sure Apple Watch will display the NDL time in a dive mode, as long as you paid your subscription, so this is critique of the article not the watch 3) Heinrichs Weikamp was already identified in comments of the article, one more company that worked on an open-source dive computer was Liquivision (which I worked for for some time in college). It was eventually bought by Huish, just like Oceanic :)

29 points by kh_hk 4y ago

ilyt 4y ago

How dare they put features behind money on an app in my overpriced Apple ecosystem, truly horrendous.

https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=57 https://youtu.be/oeqPrUmVz-o?t=57 The libre/open app issue has been brought up by Apple nay-sayers for time immemorial; Steve Job's response is brilliant here, frankly quite timeless and ultimately (in my view) apropos. "You've gotta start from the customer experience and work backwards to the technology."

bombolo 4y ago
> "You've gotta start from the customer experience and work backwards to the technology." I think they started by putting a pressure sensor and worked forward to making an app.

dewey 4y ago

> Apple is not a dive computer company. They sell computers. Other dive computer brands also sell computers, but these are not general purpose. Apple is not a [phone|watch|camera] company. They sell computers. That's what people said at every single new product that's not in their classic computer product line. Turns out you can get pretty good at products outside your initial niche, and for most people it will be more than good enough. If you ask most regular people to classify Apple they would probably say "phone company", and by revenue share they would be correct. There's a reason they renamed themselves from "Apple Computers Inc." to just Apple.

bombolo 4y ago
> Turns out you can get pretty good at products outside your initial niche, and for most people it will be more than good enough. dive computers are used in an activity that can kill you. A "you're holding it wrong" flaw could result in death rather than missed calls.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > A "you're holding it wrong" flaw could result in death rather than missed calls How many people were affected by this, and is this comparable to the failure rate of the dive computer you implicitly trust? Quick Googling: --- start quote --- From our internal information and industry connections, the failure rates we have seen over the expected service lifetime of a computer vary from 0.5% to 50%, based on the brand and model. And don't think that any particular brand makes you safe. For example, while Suunto is generally a reliable brand, the early D3 was a disaster in terms of failure rates. The Stinger on the other hand was very reliable. --- end quote --- 50% failure rate. For an activity that can kill you. Imagine if these companies were under the same scrutiny as Apple. Or for example [2] --- start quote --- I bought the computer in February 2018 March 2019, the straps + mount started rotting away April 2019 - software error E6 Enter the Bluetooth connection issues... November 2021 - E37 error! July 2022 - button loose (?!), computer floods, game over... --- end quote --- Or a settlement [3] "Suunto settles scary scuba screwup for $50m: 'Faulty' dive computer hardware and software put explorers in peril" [1] https://scubaboard.com/community/threads/dive-computers-failure-rates.226196/post-4277909 https://scubaboard.com/community/threads/dive-computers-fail... [2] https://scubaboard.com/community/threads/experience-report-scubapro-aladin-sport-matrix-a-great-computer-but.624991/ https://scubaboard.com/community/threads/experience-report-s... [3] https://www.theregister.com/2018/12/19/suunto_scuba_screwup/ https://www.theregister.com/2018/12/19/suunto_scuba_screwup/
  - bombolo 4y ago
    > How many people were affected by this, and is this comparable to the failure rate of the dive computer you implicitly trust? No idea. All the owners of that model of iphone. I have no clue how many units were sold. How is that important? Failure rate talk is a 14yrs old post from a manufacturer that used to make dive computers but has stopped. Let's ignore that until a better source is given. 2nd link: some contaminant is destroying the computer… I'm sure apple™plastic™ is no more resistant than regular plastic. The bluetooth is not a life threatening issue. The software issues are indeed worrying. In any event, those are companies that have sold millions of units. Diving with the apple watch is so costly (hardware + subscription) that few rich hobbyists will do that, and no professional diver. I'm sure failures and issues will come out, but not in the same numbers, because the heavy users can buy 2 dive computers to have redundancy and still spend less than how much it costs doing it with apple.
seydor 4y ago
It's more of a gadget fashion/lifestyle brand now. Wearables are a good fit for their target audience. Desktops, servers, or anything that's not on public display, not so much.
- CaptainZapp 4y ago
  You don't want a gadget or anything fashionable when you go scuba diving. You want an instrument, which can be ugly and boring but needs to be absolutely reliable. Anything else can literally kill you.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
I don't think they sell computers either- they sell end-user computing appliances.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bombolo 4y ago

I'm a diver, not technical but I've done deep and nitrox. The cost of the subscription seems insane. If you plan to do more than 20 dives in your lifetime, buying a dive computer seems way more convenient than this. The free plan is completely useless for scuba diving.

Tepix 4y ago
Amen. I might be interested in getting the Apple Watch Ultra (mainly for diving) but not if it involves a subscription.
davedx 4y ago
Please explain how $80/year is insane?
- CaptainZapp 4y ago
  Leaving aside the price of the watch I can get a dive computer for 200$ +. That's for me to own never having to pay a subscription fee.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  Apparently a decent starter dive computer runs $300-400. $400 = $80 * 5 And with the dedicated option you have a purpose built device and something you can resell.
  - CaptainZapp 4y ago
    Depending on what you're looking for you can get a perfectly suitable dive computer for 200$. If you need an example: Look at the Cressi Goa. But there are other examples in this price range.
    - mcphage 4y ago
      Why would you pay for a subscription in months you're not going diving? You don't need to sign up for the yearly subscription if you only do it a few times a year. Just pay for those days or months.

hnbear 4y ago

Also: yesterdays discussion on the original Apple press release: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33774685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33774685

ploum 4y ago

Like always, Apple isn’t innovating but pretending to be. Garmin released the Descent Mk i 5 years ago : a smartwatch which also does diving. Really great watch (I’m a freediver myself and it does what I want it and, most importantly, does not have a touch screen, something I hate and can’t imagine using under water while holding my breath). How is Apple different? Marketing, as always. But nothing new under the sun.

LtWorf 4y ago
Ah that's a good point… touchscreens don't work when wet.
kh_hk 4y ago
Can you write apps for the Descent Mk?
- ploum 4y ago
  Yes. The app store is called "Connect IQ".
  - kh_hk 4y ago
    Are you sure you can write apps that act as a diving app for the Garmin?
    - ploum 4y ago
      As soon as it goes below a certain depth, the watch is locked to use the "official garmin diving app". This is explained to prevent entering in any other app in the middle of a dive. I feel that the apple watch will be doing something similar (if only to lock the touchscreen under the water).
      - kh_hk 4y ago
        I was under the impression that this was not the case, since the pressure and other information seems to be available on their SDK docuementation See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coremotion/cmwatersubmersionmeasurement https://developer.apple.com/documentation/coremotion/cmwater... If this was locked to use only by the Oceanic app this wouldn't be such a big deal to me at least.

xrd 4y ago

I visited Dubrovnik, Croatia about 20 years ago. When I got into the taxi, the driver was very excited to tell me about how locals would throw dynamite into the water to blow up the fish, though I never verified the truth of that. It made me pause because I wanted to go diving there. I ended up going diving, and it was quite an experience (https://web.archive.org/web/20020505185554/http://www.bytravelers.com/journal/entry/37 https://web.archive.org/web/20020505185554/http://www.bytrav...). The owner of the dive company didn't seem to know about decompression stops, generally. We went to about 30 meters for a short moment, saw a few hollowed out German WWII mines at the bottom, then ascended into a cave at sea level, nary a decompression stop on the way. Climbing up and down the rocky stairs of Dubrovnik later that day I had the worst headache. I had a flight the next day and wondered if it was a good idea to go up to 30,000 feet. I'm still alive, so it must have been the right decision. I'm saddened to think people using dive computers will never get to experience the richness of my dive experiences because the algorithm will tell them not to go into that cave with Anton from Dubrovnik.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>the driver was very excited to tell me about how locals would throw dynamite into the water to blow up the fish Wait, seriously?! I though that was some South Park/Borat humour.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  It's very much a thing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_fishing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_fishing
- e1g 4y ago
  Can confirm - I did that as a child (with my uncles) in another soviet country. That, and electrofishing by tasing those poor Nemos. To this day I don’t know why we used those methods, but it was mad fun. Maybe literally.
  - xrd 4y ago
    Did you stuff the dynamite into the fish? That is what Borin told me these guys did. Then, you throw the fish into the water? At that point, their fishy friends come up and say "Jeez Svetlana, you looked bloated!" And, then BOOM, the fish all fly out of the water given the large blast zone.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

McDyver 4y ago

> Apple is behind the first general purpose programmable dive computer Unless Apple got into it before Heinrichs Weikamp and the OSTC [1] This is an Open Source dive computer, that is extremely well regarded in the technical diving world. The firmware is open source and there is a "big" community, considering the niche market. Unless apple came up with a new decompression algorithm that will model how tissues load and offgas, all you need are tables, a bottom timer a depth gauge and to follow your plan (with contingency for depth and time). Blindly following a computer will get you in trouble if it fails during the dive. [1] https://heinrichsweikamp.com/ https://heinrichsweikamp.com/

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kh_hk 4y ago
Just added that to the article. I do not see the OSTC as a general purpose programmable dive computer (under my own definition, that is).
jitl 4y ago
Here is their decompression implementation: https://code.heinrichsweikamp.com/public/hwos_code/file/bc214815deb2/src/p2_deco.c https://code.heinrichsweikamp.com/public/hwos_code/file/bc21... I went looking for this a few months ago and couldn’t find it, so I’m happy to finally have it. It’s quite well commented.

microtherion 4y ago

I had assumed that the "diving" feature of the Apple Watch Ultra was mostly aspirational. Is there any research on what percentage of Omega Seamaster owners have ever used them on a dive?

jitl 4y ago

I played around a bit with SwiftUI and the dive monitoring APIs in the hopes of writing an open source dive computer for the Apple Watch. I spent all my evening hacking hours on my last trip learning UI layout and not much time figuring out decompression algorithms. I might pick up the project the next time I go diving. My repo here shows some use of Apple’s APIs: https://github.com/justjake/Trieste https://github.com/justjake/Trieste

fjwolski 4y ago

1) IMHO huge deal with the dive computers is the screen type, all lower-end dive computers have same old LCD displays which have the drawback of being invisible if it's dark (wreck, cave, night, or just poor visibility water diving). Most of them have some sort of backlight, but you have to trigger that with a button, which can be dangerous. Seems like computers with OLED screen, which are always visible, start closer to the price tag of Apple Watch 2) I think the author is overselling the "you don't need that much information" point - comparison of Scubapro in dive mode vs Apple Watch in safety stop mode is apples to oranges. During a (recreational, no deco) dive you need exactly these 4 pieces of information that are displayed on the Scubapro: time, depth, no-deco time, and tank pressure (and if the last one is missing it's not because it's not important, it's because you don't have remote pressure gauge which is a separate piece of hardware, and instead you need to frequently reach for a separate pressure gauge that's physically attached to the tank). To be fair I'm sure Apple Watch will display the NDL time in a dive mode, as long as you paid your subscription, so this is critique of the article not the watch 3) Heinrichs Weikamp was already identified in comments of the article, one more company that worked on an open-source dive computer was Liquivision (which I worked for for some time in college). It was eventually bought by Huish, just like Oceanic :)