6 ms·

I thought European countries already had strong labour laws which reduces the need for a union? Is that not really the case or is Poland different?

Sander_Marechal 4y ago
We have strong labour laws because of unions
ajuc 4y ago
It's complicated, and depends on the country and industry. In Poland there's a strong labor law, but there are also "escape hatches" like working on a B2B contract (you create a 1-person company and provide services to your employer - in reality you work just the same as before but you pay less taxes and have only the safety net you negotiate for yourself - usually much less than on a regular contract). It's very common for people earning more than ~15 000 PLN per month cause taxes are much lower then, and the market is so good that abuse isn't likely anyway (people can always just switch jobs if they dislike something). Even on B2B you still get free healthcare, free education for your kids up to the university level, state retirement, etc. But you probably pay minimal possible retirement and healthcare taxes (that's the point of working on B2B) - so you will get minimal possible retirement and your sick days will be paid as if you worked on minimal salary even if you earn 5 times that when you're not sick. Despite no safety net and little regulation - it's still very common to take long vacations, sick days, maternity leave etc on B2B - simply because it's the norm in the society. People just take a hit (you earn more so you can afford it). I've never heard about people creating trade unions in IT in Poland, it's like a setup for a joke. Why bother when you get 10 better offers on LinkedIn every month - just change the job. But I guess if you work on a regular contract and want to for ideological reasons or whatever - you should be able to start a trade union, so this particular employer will get f**d in the court. BTW for other industries the situation is much less rosy - in some cases people were pressured into working a B2B contract (or else we won't hire you) with low salaries (~3000 PLN per month) and then it just sucks with no upside. But I don't think it's that common, big companies usually don't bother cause it risks problems with law.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- strato-cumulus 4y ago
  I'd agree that this mentality of "we don't need a trade union as IT workers" is pretty widespread, and it's not only a Polish thing - I've moved to Germany a long time ago and witnessed a works council being formed in the company I've been working for at the time. That company had a large IT department, but it was not an IT company per se and the basic workforce did unskilled labor. These were the people who initiated the process; some non-IT office staff joined the union, but I haven't heard of anyone working in IT who would take part in organizing a trade union. And this was in a country with presumably the strongest worker protection/union laws in the world. The other thing the CEO mentioned in the email was mining industry unions - this is the prevalent view on unions in the eyes of non-unionized workforce in the country. This might be propaganda, but ask a Polish person what do they think of the coal miners and you will hear some expletives. It's common knowledge that the coal industry has long been unsustainable and the only reason it's being kept up is to gain some votes from that part of workforce. An additional thing to know here is that the largest trade union is Solidarity, the direct successor to the original Solidarity trade union turned political movement which was the dominant force driving the democratic changes in the 80s. The movement is very politicized and heavily leans national-conservative (e.g. the official union newspaper basically reprints unfounded news and conspiracy theories), which further deepens societal divisions on the topic.
- newuserfoobar 4y ago
  I never worked in Sii, but my first company was kind of similar. The biggest problem I've encountered, was basically getting paid around 3k PLN as Junior Dev while being outsourced for something like 15k PLN as Regular Dev to US/EU companies. Middleman took more than 70% of the money for themselves. The longer you stayed in the company, the more you knew how it works, so folks with 5+ years in were actually getting more fair salary, I'd say middleman (like Sii) in their case took around 10-20%, which is quite resonable. I have the feeling that a union this guy formed aimed to cut down the fee for any new joiners or people not aware how much they were being ripped off.
0ct4via 4y ago
Capitalists and the ruling class will always find workarounds to exploit workers, regardless of labour laws -- whether this is in how you're contracted to work, loopholes in employment contracts, or whatever else. Additionally, those labour laws only exist because of unions. If anyone is reading this and isn't in a union, consider changing that. They exist for the protection and benefit of workers, your bosses don't.
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  >They [unions] exist for the protection and benefit of workers, your bosses don't. I concur, and will go further: They [unions] _usually_ exist for the protection and benefit of workers, however, it depends on the union, whether there's a 'closed shop' agreement (only one union is allowed in the company), the quality and honesty and integrity of local reps, and how many shady deals have been done over the years, and how many cover-ups have taken place to hide the shady deals over the years (and so on and so on), your bosses _don't_ exist for the protection and benefit of [the] workers, unless it significantly benefits them more.
orloffm 4y ago
Yes, you have holidays, paid medical insurance, paid gym, 1 month notice period both ways etc. No one will put extra hours on him etc. In this sense the CEO is right, this guy is a troublemaker. He just joined an outsourcing company, a "bodyshop". It's just putting your energy into something perpendicular to where he has to. As CEO mentions, there are ways to escalate many things, and in Polish culture escalating and raising questions slowly is expected. There was practically nothing for him to gain, so it is perceived as something inappropriate. Even though it's a perfectly legal thing to do, of course. And he's fired "bez zachowania okresu wypowiedzenia", so without a paid extra month, that's a bullish part from the employer, if the guy didn't sign the document, he probably is going to sue.

Sander_Marechal 4y ago

We have strong labour laws because of unions

ajuc 4y ago

It's complicated, and depends on the country and industry. In Poland there's a strong labor law, but there are also "escape hatches" like working on a B2B contract (you create a 1-person company and provide services to your employer - in reality you work just the same as before but you pay less taxes and have only the safety net you negotiate for yourself - usually much less than on a regular contract). It's very common for people earning more than ~15 000 PLN per month cause taxes are much lower then, and the market is so good that abuse isn't likely anyway (people can always just switch jobs if they dislike something). Even on B2B you still get free healthcare, free education for your kids up to the university level, state retirement, etc. But you probably pay minimal possible retirement and healthcare taxes (that's the point of working on B2B) - so you will get minimal possible retirement and your sick days will be paid as if you worked on minimal salary even if you earn 5 times that when you're not sick. Despite no safety net and little regulation - it's still very common to take long vacations, sick days, maternity leave etc on B2B - simply because it's the norm in the society. People just take a hit (you earn more so you can afford it). I've never heard about people creating trade unions in IT in Poland, it's like a setup for a joke. Why bother when you get 10 better offers on LinkedIn every month - just change the job. But I guess if you work on a regular contract and want to for ideological reasons or whatever - you should be able to start a trade union, so this particular employer will get f**d in the court. BTW for other industries the situation is much less rosy - in some cases people were pressured into working a B2B contract (or else we won't hire you) with low salaries (~3000 PLN per month) and then it just sucks with no upside. But I don't think it's that common, big companies usually don't bother cause it risks problems with law.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
strato-cumulus 4y ago
I'd agree that this mentality of "we don't need a trade union as IT workers" is pretty widespread, and it's not only a Polish thing - I've moved to Germany a long time ago and witnessed a works council being formed in the company I've been working for at the time. That company had a large IT department, but it was not an IT company per se and the basic workforce did unskilled labor. These were the people who initiated the process; some non-IT office staff joined the union, but I haven't heard of anyone working in IT who would take part in organizing a trade union. And this was in a country with presumably the strongest worker protection/union laws in the world. The other thing the CEO mentioned in the email was mining industry unions - this is the prevalent view on unions in the eyes of non-unionized workforce in the country. This might be propaganda, but ask a Polish person what do they think of the coal miners and you will hear some expletives. It's common knowledge that the coal industry has long been unsustainable and the only reason it's being kept up is to gain some votes from that part of workforce. An additional thing to know here is that the largest trade union is Solidarity, the direct successor to the original Solidarity trade union turned political movement which was the dominant force driving the democratic changes in the 80s. The movement is very politicized and heavily leans national-conservative (e.g. the official union newspaper basically reprints unfounded news and conspiracy theories), which further deepens societal divisions on the topic.
newuserfoobar 4y ago
I never worked in Sii, but my first company was kind of similar. The biggest problem I've encountered, was basically getting paid around 3k PLN as Junior Dev while being outsourced for something like 15k PLN as Regular Dev to US/EU companies. Middleman took more than 70% of the money for themselves. The longer you stayed in the company, the more you knew how it works, so folks with 5+ years in were actually getting more fair salary, I'd say middleman (like Sii) in their case took around 10-20%, which is quite resonable. I have the feeling that a union this guy formed aimed to cut down the fee for any new joiners or people not aware how much they were being ripped off.

0ct4via 4y ago

Capitalists and the ruling class will always find workarounds to exploit workers, regardless of labour laws -- whether this is in how you're contracted to work, loopholes in employment contracts, or whatever else. Additionally, those labour laws only exist because of unions. If anyone is reading this and isn't in a union, consider changing that. They exist for the protection and benefit of workers, your bosses don't.

InCityDreams 4y ago
>They [unions] exist for the protection and benefit of workers, your bosses don't. I concur, and will go further: They [unions] _usually_ exist for the protection and benefit of workers, however, it depends on the union, whether there's a 'closed shop' agreement (only one union is allowed in the company), the quality and honesty and integrity of local reps, and how many shady deals have been done over the years, and how many cover-ups have taken place to hide the shady deals over the years (and so on and so on), your bosses _don't_ exist for the protection and benefit of [the] workers, unless it significantly benefits them more.

orloffm 4y ago

Yes, you have holidays, paid medical insurance, paid gym, 1 month notice period both ways etc. No one will put extra hours on him etc. In this sense the CEO is right, this guy is a troublemaker. He just joined an outsourcing company, a "bodyshop". It's just putting your energy into something perpendicular to where he has to. As CEO mentions, there are ways to escalate many things, and in Polish culture escalating and raising questions slowly is expected. There was practically nothing for him to gain, so it is perceived as something inappropriate. Even though it's a perfectly legal thing to do, of course. And he's fired "bez zachowania okresu wypowiedzenia", so without a paid extra month, that's a bullish part from the employer, if the guy didn't sign the document, he probably is going to sue.