3 ms·

Horrifying, that language may evolve and change as time progresses

by becquerel 4y ago

concordDance 4y ago
Some evolution is natural (e.g. a majority using it in X way) and some is the result of political fights.
- rtpg 4y ago
  Do you believe that the "original" definitions are not also the result of political fights?
  - concordDance 4y ago
    For a much smaller number of words there have been political fights, yes. But the age of the dictionary, large scale political organization and long distance communication are relatively new compared to the age of most words in a language.
ClassyJacket 4y ago
- becquerel 4y ago
  I think politics is natural and organic.
- hnbad 4y ago
  Do you understand that words can have different, multiple and even conflicting definitions and a dictionary merely represents how words are used? For reference, Miriam-Webster's defines woman as such[1]: Your opposition isn't to the definition of "woman" but the definition of "female": adjective 1. a (1): of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to bear young or produce eggs (..) b: having a gender identity that is the opposite of male noun 1. a: a female person : a woman or a girl b: an individual of the sex that is typically capable of bearing young or producing eggs But these are clearly two different meanings of the word "female": one based on reproduction and another based on gender identity. So there is no contradiction in saying that a "woman" can be a person with a female gender identity who does not meet the reproductive definition of "female". Note that it also defines gender identity: noun a person's internal sense of being male, female, some combination of male and female, or neither male nor female Additionally it helpfully defines gender itself: noun (..) 2. a: SEX sense 1a b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex c: GENDER IDENTITY For completion's sake here's the definition of sex it references: either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures So "gender" can refer to reproductive characteristics, gender identity or "the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex". Note that this says "typically associated with" not "inherent in" as these attributes are all mutable and vary. It also provides a helpful usage guide for the differences between "gender" and "sex" because the distinction can be confusing if you never had to think about it much. In other words, it's not actually "redefined the word 'woman' to include males", it has merely added nuances that better reflect how the word is used in practice. Note that the definition of "sex" is also handwaving a lot of the complexity (e.g. by saying "typically" a lot) because in practice it's better described by this humongous chart: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/beyond-xx-and-xy-the-extraordinary-complexity-of-sex-determination/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/beyond-xx-and-xy-... Note that a lot of the stuff in the bucket of "intersex conditions" can be easy to miss when sex is assessed at birth and what the person looks like as an adult is determined by a number of hormone washes starting before birth and only ending after puberty. You can say "oh but these are exceptions" but 1) so are trans people and 2) exceptions need to be considered if you care about a definition being correct. It's also interesting that you seem to focus on the existence of trans women, not trans men. Male puberty (i.e. testosterone) is much harder to "undo" than the opposite. You have the choice between the absurdity of calling someone like Shawn Stinson[5] "a female" and insisting that he must use the women's restroom or acknowledging that if you didn't know he is trans, for all intents and purposes outside intimacy he is obviously a man. [1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woman https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woman [2]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/female https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/female [3]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender%20identity https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender%20identity [4]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender [5]: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y3cdHPl_hdw/VZTTItWC6yI/AAAAAAAA0KU/kE1qky7MNDQ/s1600/shawn3.png http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y3cdHPl_hdw/VZTTItWC6yI/AAAAAAAA0K...
- ben_w 4y ago
  Ship of Theseus: for whatever definition of man, how much of a man's body needs to be changed for them to become a woman?

Horrifying, that language may evolve and change as time progresses

concordDance 4y ago

Some evolution is natural (e.g. a majority using it in X way) and some is the result of political fights.

rtpg 4y ago
Do you believe that the "original" definitions are not also the result of political fights?
- concordDance 4y ago
  For a much smaller number of words there have been political fights, yes. But the age of the dictionary, large scale political organization and long distance communication are relatively new compared to the age of most words in a language.

ClassyJacket 4y ago

becquerel 4y ago
I think politics is natural and organic.
hnbad 4y ago
Do you understand that words can have different, multiple and even conflicting definitions and a dictionary merely represents how words are used? For reference, Miriam-Webster's defines woman as such[1]: Your opposition isn't to the definition of "woman" but the definition of "female": adjective 1. a (1): of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to bear young or produce eggs (..) b: having a gender identity that is the opposite of male noun 1. a: a female person : a woman or a girl b: an individual of the sex that is typically capable of bearing young or producing eggs But these are clearly two different meanings of the word "female": one based on reproduction and another based on gender identity. So there is no contradiction in saying that a "woman" can be a person with a female gender identity who does not meet the reproductive definition of "female". Note that it also defines gender identity: noun a person's internal sense of being male, female, some combination of male and female, or neither male nor female Additionally it helpfully defines gender itself: noun (..) 2. a: SEX sense 1a b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex c: GENDER IDENTITY For completion's sake here's the definition of sex it references: either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures So "gender" can refer to reproductive characteristics, gender identity or "the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex". Note that this says "typically associated with" not "inherent in" as these attributes are all mutable and vary. It also provides a helpful usage guide for the differences between "gender" and "sex" because the distinction can be confusing if you never had to think about it much. In other words, it's not actually "redefined the word 'woman' to include males", it has merely added nuances that better reflect how the word is used in practice. Note that the definition of "sex" is also handwaving a lot of the complexity (e.g. by saying "typically" a lot) because in practice it's better described by this humongous chart: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/beyond-xx-and-xy-the-extraordinary-complexity-of-sex-determination/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/beyond-xx-and-xy-... Note that a lot of the stuff in the bucket of "intersex conditions" can be easy to miss when sex is assessed at birth and what the person looks like as an adult is determined by a number of hormone washes starting before birth and only ending after puberty. You can say "oh but these are exceptions" but 1) so are trans people and 2) exceptions need to be considered if you care about a definition being correct. It's also interesting that you seem to focus on the existence of trans women, not trans men. Male puberty (i.e. testosterone) is much harder to "undo" than the opposite. You have the choice between the absurdity of calling someone like Shawn Stinson[5] "a female" and insisting that he must use the women's restroom or acknowledging that if you didn't know he is trans, for all intents and purposes outside intimacy he is obviously a man. [1]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woman https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/woman [2]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/female https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/female [3]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender%20identity https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender%20identity [4]: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender [5]: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y3cdHPl_hdw/VZTTItWC6yI/AAAAAAAA0KU/kE1qky7MNDQ/s1600/shawn3.png http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y3cdHPl_hdw/VZTTItWC6yI/AAAAAAAA0K...
ben_w 4y ago
Ship of Theseus: for whatever definition of man, how much of a man's body needs to be changed for them to become a woman?