4 ms·

But of course the completion times and attrition rates are high. Anyone who's worked in the science academia is well aware of the fact that way too many America

by zeteo 15y ago

But of course the completion times and attrition rates are high. Anyone who's worked in the science academia is well aware of the fact that way too many American K-12 graduates, no matter how much they may like a STEM career, are woefully unprepared to deal with the math involved in it. The attrition rates and general unpleasantness of these majors result directly from this factor. Until K-12 math gets fixed for good, you need either some stopgap measures to fill those jobs or the inanity to graduate engineers who can't do basic math (and then drive over the bridges they design).

geebee 15y ago
Unfortunately, I don't have data on failure rates in PhD programs broken down by immigrant vs non-immigrant. This data would be clouded by the fact that many "dropouts" are counted as successful MS students, not dropouts (further complicated by the fact that in some cases, this is absolutely true, the student was happier getting an MS and did make this choice!). It could also be clouded by the fact that US citizens can drop out of their STEM programs without jeopoardizing their right to reside in the US, whereas international students may face deportation if they fail or drop out and don't secure some other visa. I do think that this last part is used - unintentionally - to manipulate international students, and is part of why the appeal of these programs has declined for people who don't need the program to gain US residency. I would much rather see this problem resolved by empowering the immigrant to choose what field and degree path (or absence of degree path) he or she wishes to pursue than limiting their freedom. But what I can't do is pretend it isn't a factor in how abusive PhD programs can be toward their students. My first order of business in designing a better system would be to strip universities or employers of any control over an individuals immigration/residency status.
- zeteo 15y ago
  There's little point in making a career more appealing for someone if they lack the basic background for it. The explosion in college remedial math courses is good support for my argument, I believe.
- geebee 15y ago
  BTW, not sure if you're still following this thread, but here's some info on attrition: www.cgsnet.org/portals/0/pdf/N_pr_PhDC_bookII.pdf Looks like there is a statistically relevant difference in completion rates - international students tend to complete at 67% vs 54% for US citizens - and that this gap is driven by math and physical science, while humanities only has a 2% gap. So while I wouldn't say there is a vast gap, there is a relevant gap. While 67% is much preferable 54%, keep in mind that at elite law, med, and business schools, completion rates tend to be in the high 90s.

by zeteo 15y ago

geebee 15y ago

Unfortunately, I don't have data on failure rates in PhD programs broken down by immigrant vs non-immigrant. This data would be clouded by the fact that many "dropouts" are counted as successful MS students, not dropouts (further complicated by the fact that in some cases, this is absolutely true, the student was happier getting an MS and did make this choice!). It could also be clouded by the fact that US citizens can drop out of their STEM programs without jeopoardizing their right to reside in the US, whereas international students may face deportation if they fail or drop out and don't secure some other visa. I do think that this last part is used - unintentionally - to manipulate international students, and is part of why the appeal of these programs has declined for people who don't need the program to gain US residency. I would much rather see this problem resolved by empowering the immigrant to choose what field and degree path (or absence of degree path) he or she wishes to pursue than limiting their freedom. But what I can't do is pretend it isn't a factor in how abusive PhD programs can be toward their students. My first order of business in designing a better system would be to strip universities or employers of any control over an individuals immigration/residency status.

zeteo 15y ago
There's little point in making a career more appealing for someone if they lack the basic background for it. The explosion in college remedial math courses is good support for my argument, I believe.
geebee 15y ago
BTW, not sure if you're still following this thread, but here's some info on attrition: www.cgsnet.org/portals/0/pdf/N_pr_PhDC_bookII.pdf Looks like there is a statistically relevant difference in completion rates - international students tend to complete at 67% vs 54% for US citizens - and that this gap is driven by math and physical science, while humanities only has a 2% gap. So while I wouldn't say there is a vast gap, there is a relevant gap. While 67% is much preferable 54%, keep in mind that at elite law, med, and business schools, completion rates tend to be in the high 90s.