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But I don’t want a veggie patty. I want a hamburger that doesn’t involve killing animals. Beyond/Impossible is close enough.

by bryan0 4y ago

PankajGhosh 4y ago
Understood that you dont; But before Beyond/Impossible came, there used to be veggie patty that vegetarians enjoyed. And many of them have never tasted meat, and don't want to eat something that tastes like meat. OP's point is that Beyond/Impossible replaced the veggie patty with a non-meat version of meat patty, instead of adding a new item in the menu.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  And, honestly, as a meat-eater I really enjoy certain veggie patties. It's not meat, but it shouldn't be. They're their own delicious thing. When I'm in the mood for a veggie burger, I don't want a hamburger. Restaurants shouldn't replace veggie patties with imitation meat -- they should have both.
  - dkarl 4y ago
    Heck yeah. It's like pasta primavera and pasta bolognese. If you want one, you're not going to be happy with the other.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    The thing some vegetarians do not understand is that traditional cuisine from all over the World is basically 90% vegetarian, because poor people had to survive too. I'm Italian, I could eat vegetarian meals everyday for a month without ever eating the same thing twice. Same goes for all of Europe, Asia, Middle East, Africa or South America. Vegetable dishes are the foundation of every established culinary tradition. There's absolutely no need for incredible|magical|impossible|whatever meat.
    - valarauko 4y ago
      > The thing some vegetarians do not understand is that traditional cuisine from all over the World is basically 90% vegetarian, because poor people had to survive too. You're saying that vegetarians don't know this?
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        > You're saying that vegetarians don't know this? Arguably some don't. Read again: some.
        valarauko 4y ago
        Sure, some people of every ilk are likely to be uninformed about some aspect of the world or the other. How does that apply in the current context? Most meals for most people worldwide are essentially vegetarian, even if the people are not obligate vegetarians. Are there some vegetarians unfamiliar with the reality of practically all world cuisines? Sure - and? Impossible meats aren't directed towards these people, and they aren't looking to substitute the taste of a burger. They're likely not averse to it, for what it's worth.
        peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        > Sure, some people of every ilk are likely to be uninformed about some aspect of the world or the other I am absolutely not claiming that, I am absolutely claiming that beliefs based on feelings and not hard truths tend to reject rational arguments, hence their members are usually not the most curious people around and it's common they ignore things that are obvious to the rest of us. Take a western vegetarian, we all know a few of them and some vegan too. Most vegetarians/vegan inform themselves in vegetarian communities, which are based on the same western principles where they were born, mainly North America. Most vegetarian communities are based on spurious correlations, like the fact that 80% of people from India are Hinduists, a religion that promotes a lacto-vegetarian diet letting people believe that 80% of Indians are vegetarians, which is obviously completely false. Christianity promotes a mostly vegetarian diet too, there's a list of food that you should not consume on certain days, nobody follows those prescriptions anymore, they are thousands years old and come from the Jewish traditions. But if I say that 30% of the World population is Christian, a religion that promotes a mostly vegetarian diet, things sound completely different. Don't also forget that in vegetarian circles meat is the root cause of everything bad: from cancer[1] to diabetes[2], deforestation[3], being overweight [4], depression[5] and even infertility[6] (yes, you heard right!) All these claims have been either debunked, highly exaggerated or correlated when there is no factual evidence. Yet they resist in the narrative of these communities, like the idea that Christ died on a cross and then came back to life 3 days later. It's false, we know it is, but people still believe it and there's nothing we can do about it. It's easy to understand the stigma that these manipulatory lies can create around "traditional food", these people often think of themselves as revolutionary going against the status quo, so their enemy are their local traditions, not just the meat (everyone eats some meat around them, so it must be "the others their ways and they do not see it"). So they end up eating a lot of food that is not local nor traditional (tradition equals bad, remember?), such as tofu, that in Italy is totally not traditional nor commonly used, yet most vegetarians and vegans rely on it. The reason why? Vegetarianism in the west is a business, if you can sell the dirty cheap tofu at 5-10 euros/kg (that's the price in Italy) while poultry costs 3-5 euros/kg (raw, raised on the ground and antibiotic free) you can understand how convenient it is to sell people the idea that you need to eat tofu instead of pasta with tomato sauce (1-1.5 euros/kg), you are in for the big bucks. Don't dismiss what I say just because you disagree, I've researched the topic a lot, this is just the tip of the iceberg. > Most meals for most people worldwide are essentially vegetarian, even if the people are not obligate vegetarians Sooner or later people in the west will understand that there are people among us priding themselves for not eating meat while our pets, for example cats, every year eat 10 times the meat an average central African person has to eat, suffering the horrendous consequences of malnutrition, like watching their children die of hunger or curable disease that their bodies weakened by the forced plant based diet hadn't the strength to fight, and we don't see a problem with that. The irony is that those people are in developing countries, they are developing, they will eventually eat more meat, no way they will keep dying for a made up belief, for those who care about animal suffering I have an advice: renounce to pets. They eat too much meat, they kill too many animals, they are not sustainable. [1] https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/cancer-causing-foods-2/ https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/cancer-causing-foods-2/ [2] https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/diabetes/ https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/diabetes/ [3] https://thehumaneleague.org/article/meat-industry-deforestation-cop26 https://thehumaneleague.org/article/meat-industry-deforestat... [4] https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/obesity/ https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/obesity/ [5] https://psychcentral.com/depression/foods-that-cause-depression#processed-meat https://psychcentral.com/depression/foods-that-cause-depress... [6] https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods-to-avoid-when-trying-to-get-pregnant#1.-Red-and-processed-meats https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods-to-avoid-when-try...
dkarl 4y ago
I love a good veggie patty burger. I also like the Impossible burger. I'd love to see both on a menu so I can choose the one I want. And heck I'll eat a meatburger on special occasions as well. There are a couple of local restaurants that had really nicely done veggie patties that have been displaced by Beyond/Impossible burgers, and it's a shame.
wtetzner 4y ago
Unfortunately I doubt Beyond/Impossible don’t involve killing animals.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
> But I don’t want a veggie patty. I want a hamburger that doesn’t involve killing animals so basically you want a veggie patty disguised as an hamburger. but there's a catch: agriculture kills as many animals than we do to eat them. You might not see them, but billions of insects, worms, small rodents etc are killed in the process of making agriculture a viable business. Pesticides are not exactly environmental friendly. But then the crops need to be protected from their natural predators: herbivores! You might have asked yourself sometimes why we don't see deers, boars, jackrabbits, cows, goats (the list is endless) roaming free close to crop fields and the answer is simple: they eat the crops, so they have been killed in the past and are now kept away, maybe not shooting them directly, but not asking gently either. That causes massive repercussions on natural fauna too: coyotes, wolves, bears, cougars, bobcats etc cannot survive in absence of preys. So basically veggie patties are not made of dead animals, but a lot of animals died so that we could eat them.
- sweetheart 4y ago
  https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too/resources https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too/re...
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    I am aware of the objections coming from vegans, I really have nothing to say to them other than I am in favour of freedom of worship, but I am also an atheist who tries to stand on the side of the scientific method as much as my abilities allow me, so I think National Geographic and PNAS are a more reliable source of information. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/insect-apocalypse-under-way-toxic-pesticides-agriculture https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/insec... https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2023989118 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2023989118 Most importantly: loss of vegetable specie due to mono cultures farmed specifically for humans (tomatoes for burgers, for example - McDonald's is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, purchaser in the world of potatoes, lettuce and tomatoes - or avocados for fancy sandwiches, that consume 300 liters of water to produce a single fruit) is not be underestimated. As an example, this sentence > vegans are inflicting far less damage because most of the cereal crops that are mono-cropped (wheat, corn, soy, etc.) are fed to the animals people consume. is almost completely made up and numbers are greatly exaggerated for propagandistic purpose. The reason why original Parmigiano cheese is so worshipped by Italians and it's so expensive abroad, is exactly because cows are not fed with crops, bu with natural grass. The reason why in USA many animals are fed with farmed crops is because crops are subsidized by the govt, making them cheaper than the alternatives. Another reason why herbivores are fed with crops is because they can eat the remains we can't eat, which is around 85% of the whole plant https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5caca181348cd9096a444787/1568118426384-PXRYCUPW2J4GKLSV0GVO/Inedible+Material+Infographic-2.png?format=1500w https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5caca181348cd9... According to FAO (United Nations Agency for food) "only 13% of global animal feed (all animals for food, including chickens, pigs and cattle) is comprised of grain crops" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211912416300013 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S22119... Crops are also heavily subsidized to produce bio fuel, which is not great, I agree, but that has nothing to do with feeding animals or eating their meat.

But I don’t want a veggie patty. I want a hamburger that doesn’t involve killing animals. Beyond/Impossible is close enough.

by bryan0 4y ago

But I don’t want a veggie patty. I want a hamburger that doesn’t involve killing animals. Beyond/Impossible is close enough.

PankajGhosh 4y ago

Understood that you dont; But before Beyond/Impossible came, there used to be veggie patty that vegetarians enjoyed. And many of them have never tasted meat, and don't want to eat something that tastes like meat. OP's point is that Beyond/Impossible replaced the veggie patty with a non-meat version of meat patty, instead of adding a new item in the menu.

JohnFen 4y ago
And, honestly, as a meat-eater I really enjoy certain veggie patties. It's not meat, but it shouldn't be. They're their own delicious thing. When I'm in the mood for a veggie burger, I don't want a hamburger. Restaurants shouldn't replace veggie patties with imitation meat -- they should have both.
- dkarl 4y ago
  Heck yeah. It's like pasta primavera and pasta bolognese. If you want one, you're not going to be happy with the other.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  The thing some vegetarians do not understand is that traditional cuisine from all over the World is basically 90% vegetarian, because poor people had to survive too. I'm Italian, I could eat vegetarian meals everyday for a month without ever eating the same thing twice. Same goes for all of Europe, Asia, Middle East, Africa or South America. Vegetable dishes are the foundation of every established culinary tradition. There's absolutely no need for incredible|magical|impossible|whatever meat.
  - valarauko 4y ago
    > The thing some vegetarians do not understand is that traditional cuisine from all over the World is basically 90% vegetarian, because poor people had to survive too. You're saying that vegetarians don't know this?
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      > You're saying that vegetarians don't know this? Arguably some don't. Read again: some.
      - valarauko 4y ago
        Sure, some people of every ilk are likely to be uninformed about some aspect of the world or the other. How does that apply in the current context? Most meals for most people worldwide are essentially vegetarian, even if the people are not obligate vegetarians. Are there some vegetarians unfamiliar with the reality of practically all world cuisines? Sure - and? Impossible meats aren't directed towards these people, and they aren't looking to substitute the taste of a burger. They're likely not averse to it, for what it's worth.
        peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        > Sure, some people of every ilk are likely to be uninformed about some aspect of the world or the other I am absolutely not claiming that, I am absolutely claiming that beliefs based on feelings and not hard truths tend to reject rational arguments, hence their members are usually not the most curious people around and it's common they ignore things that are obvious to the rest of us. Take a western vegetarian, we all know a few of them and some vegan too. Most vegetarians/vegan inform themselves in vegetarian communities, which are based on the same western principles where they were born, mainly North America. Most vegetarian communities are based on spurious correlations, like the fact that 80% of people from India are Hinduists, a religion that promotes a lacto-vegetarian diet letting people believe that 80% of Indians are vegetarians, which is obviously completely false. Christianity promotes a mostly vegetarian diet too, there's a list of food that you should not consume on certain days, nobody follows those prescriptions anymore, they are thousands years old and come from the Jewish traditions. But if I say that 30% of the World population is Christian, a religion that promotes a mostly vegetarian diet, things sound completely different. Don't also forget that in vegetarian circles meat is the root cause of everything bad: from cancer[1] to diabetes[2], deforestation[3], being overweight [4], depression[5] and even infertility[6] (yes, you heard right!) All these claims have been either debunked, highly exaggerated or correlated when there is no factual evidence. Yet they resist in the narrative of these communities, like the idea that Christ died on a cross and then came back to life 3 days later. It's false, we know it is, but people still believe it and there's nothing we can do about it. It's easy to understand the stigma that these manipulatory lies can create around "traditional food", these people often think of themselves as revolutionary going against the status quo, so their enemy are their local traditions, not just the meat (everyone eats some meat around them, so it must be "the others their ways and they do not see it"). So they end up eating a lot of food that is not local nor traditional (tradition equals bad, remember?), such as tofu, that in Italy is totally not traditional nor commonly used, yet most vegetarians and vegans rely on it. The reason why? Vegetarianism in the west is a business, if you can sell the dirty cheap tofu at 5-10 euros/kg (that's the price in Italy) while poultry costs 3-5 euros/kg (raw, raised on the ground and antibiotic free) you can understand how convenient it is to sell people the idea that you need to eat tofu instead of pasta with tomato sauce (1-1.5 euros/kg), you are in for the big bucks. Don't dismiss what I say just because you disagree, I've researched the topic a lot, this is just the tip of the iceberg. > Most meals for most people worldwide are essentially vegetarian, even if the people are not obligate vegetarians Sooner or later people in the west will understand that there are people among us priding themselves for not eating meat while our pets, for example cats, every year eat 10 times the meat an average central African person has to eat, suffering the horrendous consequences of malnutrition, like watching their children die of hunger or curable disease that their bodies weakened by the forced plant based diet hadn't the strength to fight, and we don't see a problem with that. The irony is that those people are in developing countries, they are developing, they will eventually eat more meat, no way they will keep dying for a made up belief, for those who care about animal suffering I have an advice: renounce to pets. They eat too much meat, they kill too many animals, they are not sustainable. [1] https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/cancer-causing-foods-2/ https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/cancer-causing-foods-2/ [2] https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/diabetes/ https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/diabetes/ [3] https://thehumaneleague.org/article/meat-industry-deforestation-cop26 https://thehumaneleague.org/article/meat-industry-deforestat... [4] https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/obesity/ https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/obesity/ [5] https://psychcentral.com/depression/foods-that-cause-depression#processed-meat https://psychcentral.com/depression/foods-that-cause-depress... [6] https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods-to-avoid-when-trying-to-get-pregnant#1.-Red-and-processed-meats https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/foods-to-avoid-when-try...

dkarl 4y ago

I love a good veggie patty burger. I also like the Impossible burger. I'd love to see both on a menu so I can choose the one I want. And heck I'll eat a meatburger on special occasions as well. There are a couple of local restaurants that had really nicely done veggie patties that have been displaced by Beyond/Impossible burgers, and it's a shame.

wtetzner 4y ago

Unfortunately I doubt Beyond/Impossible don’t involve killing animals.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

> But I don’t want a veggie patty. I want a hamburger that doesn’t involve killing animals so basically you want a veggie patty disguised as an hamburger. but there's a catch: agriculture kills as many animals than we do to eat them. You might not see them, but billions of insects, worms, small rodents etc are killed in the process of making agriculture a viable business. Pesticides are not exactly environmental friendly. But then the crops need to be protected from their natural predators: herbivores! You might have asked yourself sometimes why we don't see deers, boars, jackrabbits, cows, goats (the list is endless) roaming free close to crop fields and the answer is simple: they eat the crops, so they have been killed in the past and are now kept away, maybe not shooting them directly, but not asking gently either. That causes massive repercussions on natural fauna too: coyotes, wolves, bears, cougars, bobcats etc cannot survive in absence of preys. So basically veggie patties are not made of dead animals, but a lot of animals died so that we could eat them.

sweetheart 4y ago
https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too/resources https://yourveganfallacyis.com/en/vegans-kill-animals-too/re...
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  I am aware of the objections coming from vegans, I really have nothing to say to them other than I am in favour of freedom of worship, but I am also an atheist who tries to stand on the side of the scientific method as much as my abilities allow me, so I think National Geographic and PNAS are a more reliable source of information. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/insect-apocalypse-under-way-toxic-pesticides-agriculture https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/insec... https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2023989118 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2023989118 Most importantly: loss of vegetable specie due to mono cultures farmed specifically for humans (tomatoes for burgers, for example - McDonald's is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, purchaser in the world of potatoes, lettuce and tomatoes - or avocados for fancy sandwiches, that consume 300 liters of water to produce a single fruit) is not be underestimated. As an example, this sentence > vegans are inflicting far less damage because most of the cereal crops that are mono-cropped (wheat, corn, soy, etc.) are fed to the animals people consume. is almost completely made up and numbers are greatly exaggerated for propagandistic purpose. The reason why original Parmigiano cheese is so worshipped by Italians and it's so expensive abroad, is exactly because cows are not fed with crops, bu with natural grass. The reason why in USA many animals are fed with farmed crops is because crops are subsidized by the govt, making them cheaper than the alternatives. Another reason why herbivores are fed with crops is because they can eat the remains we can't eat, which is around 85% of the whole plant https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5caca181348cd9096a444787/1568118426384-PXRYCUPW2J4GKLSV0GVO/Inedible+Material+Infographic-2.png?format=1500w https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5caca181348cd9... According to FAO (United Nations Agency for food) "only 13% of global animal feed (all animals for food, including chickens, pigs and cattle) is comprised of grain crops" https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2211912416300013 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S22119... Crops are also heavily subsidized to produce bio fuel, which is not great, I agree, but that has nothing to do with feeding animals or eating their meat.