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This issue comes up a lot on hacker news. While I do stongly support a stronger emphasis on skilles immigrants, and I do believe STEM grads are valuable, I bel

by geebee 15y ago

This issue comes up a lot on hacker news. While I do stongly support a stronger emphasis on skilles immigrants, and I do believe STEM grads are valuable, I believe this article (and this genre of article in general) overlook a critical point. I've mentioned a RAND study many times in my comments on hn. This study took a very objective look at the pay, career prospects, completion time, attrition rate, and so forth of STEM grad degrees vs the professions (MD, JD, DDS, MBA, etc). The conclusion reached was that STEM grad degrees are unappealing to young americans because they are no longer competitive with other career paths available to the "best and brightest". So, does it make sense to specifically staple green cards to evey stem diploma when the most objective research suggests the shortage may be market driven? I don't have a definitive answer. I think it's a complex question wothy of discussion, and not at all the no-brainer the atlantic article claims it it.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
opinali 15y ago
Maybe the government / society / businesses / schools can solve the problem in some way; but any solution would take many years to develop - it's not like millions of extra STEM grads will be popping out of college a week after you start some kind of campaign to make it more appealing. (Which doesn't mean you should not start it right now, in parallel with adequate immigration policies.) Also, this problem is not unique to America. The shortage of skilled STEM professionals is universal in every country with a modern economy. And I don't think this will ever change; STEM is not appealing to everybody, it's just too hard and too boring for most people. I don't say that in a demeaning way; Law or Health Sciences for example, are too hard and too boring for my thick skull. People are different. But in the modern world, the increasing demand for people with a STEM-friendly brain is clearly exceeding the percentage of the population who both have that kind of brain and are lucky/wealthy/hard-working enough to afford full education.
zeteo 15y ago
But of course the completion times and attrition rates are high. Anyone who's worked in the science academia is well aware of the fact that way too many American K-12 graduates, no matter how much they may like a STEM career, are woefully unprepared to deal with the math involved in it. The attrition rates and general unpleasantness of these majors result directly from this factor. Until K-12 math gets fixed for good, you need either some stopgap measures to fill those jobs or the inanity to graduate engineers who can't do basic math (and then drive over the bridges they design).
- geebee 15y ago
  Unfortunately, I don't have data on failure rates in PhD programs broken down by immigrant vs non-immigrant. This data would be clouded by the fact that many "dropouts" are counted as successful MS students, not dropouts (further complicated by the fact that in some cases, this is absolutely true, the student was happier getting an MS and did make this choice!). It could also be clouded by the fact that US citizens can drop out of their STEM programs without jeopoardizing their right to reside in the US, whereas international students may face deportation if they fail or drop out and don't secure some other visa. I do think that this last part is used - unintentionally - to manipulate international students, and is part of why the appeal of these programs has declined for people who don't need the program to gain US residency. I would much rather see this problem resolved by empowering the immigrant to choose what field and degree path (or absence of degree path) he or she wishes to pursue than limiting their freedom. But what I can't do is pretend it isn't a factor in how abusive PhD programs can be toward their students. My first order of business in designing a better system would be to strip universities or employers of any control over an individuals immigration/residency status.
  - zeteo 15y ago
    There's little point in making a career more appealing for someone if they lack the basic background for it. The explosion in college remedial math courses is good support for my argument, I believe.
  - geebee 15y ago
    BTW, not sure if you're still following this thread, but here's some info on attrition: www.cgsnet.org/portals/0/pdf/N_pr_PhDC_bookII.pdf Looks like there is a statistically relevant difference in completion rates - international students tend to complete at 67% vs 54% for US citizens - and that this gap is driven by math and physical science, while humanities only has a 2% gap. So while I wouldn't say there is a vast gap, there is a relevant gap. While 67% is much preferable 54%, keep in mind that at elite law, med, and business schools, completion rates tend to be in the high 90s.

by geebee 15y ago

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

opinali 15y ago

Maybe the government / society / businesses / schools can solve the problem in some way; but any solution would take many years to develop - it's not like millions of extra STEM grads will be popping out of college a week after you start some kind of campaign to make it more appealing. (Which doesn't mean you should not start it right now, in parallel with adequate immigration policies.) Also, this problem is not unique to America. The shortage of skilled STEM professionals is universal in every country with a modern economy. And I don't think this will ever change; STEM is not appealing to everybody, it's just too hard and too boring for most people. I don't say that in a demeaning way; Law or Health Sciences for example, are too hard and too boring for my thick skull. People are different. But in the modern world, the increasing demand for people with a STEM-friendly brain is clearly exceeding the percentage of the population who both have that kind of brain and are lucky/wealthy/hard-working enough to afford full education.

zeteo 15y ago

But of course the completion times and attrition rates are high. Anyone who's worked in the science academia is well aware of the fact that way too many American K-12 graduates, no matter how much they may like a STEM career, are woefully unprepared to deal with the math involved in it. The attrition rates and general unpleasantness of these majors result directly from this factor. Until K-12 math gets fixed for good, you need either some stopgap measures to fill those jobs or the inanity to graduate engineers who can't do basic math (and then drive over the bridges they design).

geebee 15y ago
Unfortunately, I don't have data on failure rates in PhD programs broken down by immigrant vs non-immigrant. This data would be clouded by the fact that many "dropouts" are counted as successful MS students, not dropouts (further complicated by the fact that in some cases, this is absolutely true, the student was happier getting an MS and did make this choice!). It could also be clouded by the fact that US citizens can drop out of their STEM programs without jeopoardizing their right to reside in the US, whereas international students may face deportation if they fail or drop out and don't secure some other visa. I do think that this last part is used - unintentionally - to manipulate international students, and is part of why the appeal of these programs has declined for people who don't need the program to gain US residency. I would much rather see this problem resolved by empowering the immigrant to choose what field and degree path (or absence of degree path) he or she wishes to pursue than limiting their freedom. But what I can't do is pretend it isn't a factor in how abusive PhD programs can be toward their students. My first order of business in designing a better system would be to strip universities or employers of any control over an individuals immigration/residency status.
- zeteo 15y ago
  There's little point in making a career more appealing for someone if they lack the basic background for it. The explosion in college remedial math courses is good support for my argument, I believe.
- geebee 15y ago
  BTW, not sure if you're still following this thread, but here's some info on attrition: www.cgsnet.org/portals/0/pdf/N_pr_PhDC_bookII.pdf Looks like there is a statistically relevant difference in completion rates - international students tend to complete at 67% vs 54% for US citizens - and that this gap is driven by math and physical science, while humanities only has a 2% gap. So while I wouldn't say there is a vast gap, there is a relevant gap. While 67% is much preferable 54%, keep in mind that at elite law, med, and business schools, completion rates tend to be in the high 90s.