5 ms·

EU Regulator: Proposal to force websites to pay telcos puts Internet at risk

103 points by jacobobryant 4y ago

willnonya 4y ago
So the customers are paying for access to the internet to access services and these isp want the services to pay to provide that same service? Nevermind that the providers are potentially paying for the same internet access.
- Doxin 4y ago
  Even better. The customers are paying for access to the internet. The services are paying for access to the internet. By some convoluted logic the users ISP wants the services ISP to pay them too. It's like paying to send text messages plus paying to receive text messages plus paying for other people to receive text messages.
mikysco 4y ago
Website wouldn't load for me... cached version: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2rSRyDsFWnAJ:https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2022/11/eus-top-telecom-regulator-big-telecoms-proposal-force-websites-pay-them-puts-internet&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&lr=lang_en|lang_es https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2rSRyD...
- AceJohnny2 4y ago
  ironic.
- aliqot 4y ago
  did you pay the bill?
  - Thorrez 4y ago
    mikysco paid mikysco's ISP, but unfortunately cyberlaw.stanford.edu didn't pay mikysco's ISP, so mikysco's ISP blocked it.
spsoto 4y ago
Link to archive: https://archive.ph/2022.11.29-005636/https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2022/11/eus-top-telecom-regulator-big-telecoms-proposal-force-websites-pay-them-puts-internet https://archive.ph/2022.11.29-005636/https://cyberlaw.stanfo...
dsr_ 4y ago
Everyone already pays for their Internet access. In some cases, two networks will judge that their exchange is close enough to equal value that they will have a settlement-free peering in some locations at some speed. Every few years, an MBA at a telco decides that there is rent to extract, often because they don't understand how the Internet works. They are always wrong.
- dboreham 4y ago
  MBAs eating the world again.
- lzooz 4y ago
  The purpose of an ISP is to allow a connection between customers and websites. Why should only one side pay?
  - xboxnolifes 4y ago
    Both sides already pay? Customers pay for internet access. Websites run on servers which are using some form of internet being paid for. If there is an ISP giving out free bandwidth somewhere, do please let me know.
    - dhdgrygev 4y ago
      Cloudflare R2 gives out essentially free bandwidth, if that's the kind of thing you meant?
      - orangepurple 4y ago
        R2 is object storage and only part of a functional website
        dhdgrygev 4y ago
        Of course. But it will provide you with free egress for files, a game changer for many projects. I've seen some projects from the community be several orders of magnitude cheaper to run than on competing services. Definitely worth exploring if you have any kind of large files to distribute, which seems like it might be the goal given the question was about bandwidth specifically.
gerdesj 4y ago
Clickbait title really is the title on the article but it is bollocks (spoiler: Internet not at risk): "Europe’s top telecom regulator dealt a strong blow to Europe’s biggest telecoms in a report released in October, finding “no evidence” to justify the proposal from large broadband companies ... to force websites and apps to pay them."
- dylan604 4y ago
  It's like the old meme of Congress wanting to charge postage on email. It just won't die, then some ID10T type hears it as a TIL but thinks it's a good idea. lather, rinse, repeat
Havoc 4y ago
Think we need more gen z politicians. This whole doesn’t understand how the internet works thing is getting old
- Bayart 4y ago
  It doesn't seem you've bothered to read the piece, or really even the title properly. The regulatory body in question is shutting down grubby ISPs.
  - shkkmo 4y ago
    The "politicians" being referenced are the ones on the European Commission that worked on and announced this law. It took a mass public outcry to get the EC to delay the law long enough for the regulatory body (BEREC) to issue this report. The report doesn't "shut down" efforts to pass this law, but hopefully will make it harder for the EC to push through. Complaints about the politicians who put this forward in the first place seem entirely warranted.
- rosnd 4y ago
  Since when does gen z understand how internet works? You'd have better luck with millenials.
- InCityDreams 4y ago
  I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck. - Bill.
- foepys 4y ago
  The myth that young people know more about the internet just because they grew up with it needs to die. It's just not true. The average teen doesn't know more about technology than the average boomer does. Even a 2 y/o knows how to handle a smartphone and use apps, it's nothing special anymore.
- csomar 4y ago
  Gen z will probably suck at this. Millennials will be best. Gen z did grow with a walled internet (insta/snap/tiktok) and apps (uber/grab/…) that they might not appreciate why the Internet should be free.
aspectmin 4y ago
I think they quickly forget that without all those websites the telcos wouldn't have an internet business in the first place. Perhaps the telcos should pay the internet sites, after all - they are benefiting from all the content those web sites create.
- oriettaxx 4y ago
  oh, yes! you are right, this is a good one :) Add to this we experimented for years how greedy the telco s can be!
oriettaxx 4y ago
this has some Italian origin and links to a typical behavior you see there: doing business is hard, it is much easier to look at who is making money and pretend somehow a share, Instead of properly investing in R&D you just look at who is making money: I've heard them saying: they make billions thanks to "our" cables, they have to give us some! Lobbies have been working on this for years: now that they saw that even gas can be declared green, or that you can turn the EU in a guns buyer in few months (so that, somehow, anything goes) they are kicking harder. A good term to be used to denigrate this attitude is to use the Italian slang 'pizzo', so I would call it: the 'pizzo EU proposal'
6510 4y ago
I always encourage people to compare internet with water, electricity, sewage, gas and roads. These other networks are by comparison 1) incredibly expensive to build and 2) expensive to maintain and 3) incredibly cheap to use. What is an ISP but a bunch of tiny switch boxes? We can see it costs nothing to set up or maintain in how prices scale with purchase power: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=33 https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings... At some point law makers should move in? I think the above proposal should make a good excuse for merciless price regulation.
digitaltrees 4y ago
Flip this around on the ISPs, no one is going to want to pay you for internet service if there arent interesting websites to visit...so the ISPs should pay each website that their users visit. Seems only fair since the product ISPs are offering is a conduit to the product customers actually want but dont currently have to pay for. It would make the Internet a lot less reliant on advertising.
Proven 4y ago
acd 4y ago
Commercial lobby groups in politicial setting should be banned. Lobbyism is a form of slow corrruption. Democracy is here to serve the voice of the people not promote corporate interest first.

103 points by jacobobryant 4y ago

So the customers are paying for access to the internet to access services and these isp want the services to pay to provide that same service? Nevermind that the providers are potentially paying for the same internet access.

Doxin 4y ago
Even better. The customers are paying for access to the internet. The services are paying for access to the internet. By some convoluted logic the users ISP wants the services ISP to pay them too. It's like paying to send text messages plus paying to receive text messages plus paying for other people to receive text messages.

mikysco 4y ago

Website wouldn't load for me... cached version: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2rSRyDsFWnAJ:https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2022/11/eus-top-telecom-regulator-big-telecoms-proposal-force-websites-pay-them-puts-internet&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&lr=lang_en|lang_es https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2rSRyD...

AceJohnny2 4y ago
ironic.
aliqot 4y ago
did you pay the bill?
- Thorrez 4y ago
  mikysco paid mikysco's ISP, but unfortunately cyberlaw.stanford.edu didn't pay mikysco's ISP, so mikysco's ISP blocked it.

spsoto 4y ago

Link to archive: https://archive.ph/2022.11.29-005636/https://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2022/11/eus-top-telecom-regulator-big-telecoms-proposal-force-websites-pay-them-puts-internet https://archive.ph/2022.11.29-005636/https://cyberlaw.stanfo...

dsr_ 4y ago

Everyone already pays for their Internet access. In some cases, two networks will judge that their exchange is close enough to equal value that they will have a settlement-free peering in some locations at some speed. Every few years, an MBA at a telco decides that there is rent to extract, often because they don't understand how the Internet works. They are always wrong.

dboreham 4y ago
MBAs eating the world again.
lzooz 4y ago
The purpose of an ISP is to allow a connection between customers and websites. Why should only one side pay?
- xboxnolifes 4y ago
  Both sides already pay? Customers pay for internet access. Websites run on servers which are using some form of internet being paid for. If there is an ISP giving out free bandwidth somewhere, do please let me know.
  - dhdgrygev 4y ago
    Cloudflare R2 gives out essentially free bandwidth, if that's the kind of thing you meant?
    - orangepurple 4y ago
      R2 is object storage and only part of a functional website
      - dhdgrygev 4y ago
        Of course. But it will provide you with free egress for files, a game changer for many projects. I've seen some projects from the community be several orders of magnitude cheaper to run than on competing services. Definitely worth exploring if you have any kind of large files to distribute, which seems like it might be the goal given the question was about bandwidth specifically.

gerdesj 4y ago

Clickbait title really is the title on the article but it is bollocks (spoiler: Internet not at risk): "Europe’s top telecom regulator dealt a strong blow to Europe’s biggest telecoms in a report released in October, finding “no evidence” to justify the proposal from large broadband companies ... to force websites and apps to pay them."

dylan604 4y ago
It's like the old meme of Congress wanting to charge postage on email. It just won't die, then some ID10T type hears it as a TIL but thinks it's a good idea. lather, rinse, repeat

Havoc 4y ago

Think we need more gen z politicians. This whole doesn’t understand how the internet works thing is getting old

Bayart 4y ago
It doesn't seem you've bothered to read the piece, or really even the title properly. The regulatory body in question is shutting down grubby ISPs.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  The "politicians" being referenced are the ones on the European Commission that worked on and announced this law. It took a mass public outcry to get the EC to delay the law long enough for the regulatory body (BEREC) to issue this report. The report doesn't "shut down" efforts to pass this law, but hopefully will make it harder for the EC to push through. Complaints about the politicians who put this forward in the first place seem entirely warranted.
rosnd 4y ago
Since when does gen z understand how internet works? You'd have better luck with millenials.
InCityDreams 4y ago
I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck. - Bill.
foepys 4y ago
The myth that young people know more about the internet just because they grew up with it needs to die. It's just not true. The average teen doesn't know more about technology than the average boomer does. Even a 2 y/o knows how to handle a smartphone and use apps, it's nothing special anymore.
csomar 4y ago
Gen z will probably suck at this. Millennials will be best. Gen z did grow with a walled internet (insta/snap/tiktok) and apps (uber/grab/…) that they might not appreciate why the Internet should be free.

aspectmin 4y ago

I think they quickly forget that without all those websites the telcos wouldn't have an internet business in the first place. Perhaps the telcos should pay the internet sites, after all - they are benefiting from all the content those web sites create.

oriettaxx 4y ago
oh, yes! you are right, this is a good one :) Add to this we experimented for years how greedy the telco s can be!

oriettaxx 4y ago

this has some Italian origin and links to a typical behavior you see there: doing business is hard, it is much easier to look at who is making money and pretend somehow a share, Instead of properly investing in R&D you just look at who is making money: I've heard them saying: they make billions thanks to "our" cables, they have to give us some! Lobbies have been working on this for years: now that they saw that even gas can be declared green, or that you can turn the EU in a guns buyer in few months (so that, somehow, anything goes) they are kicking harder. A good term to be used to denigrate this attitude is to use the Italian slang 'pizzo', so I would call it: the 'pizzo EU proposal'

6510 4y ago

I always encourage people to compare internet with water, electricity, sewage, gas and roads. These other networks are by comparison 1) incredibly expensive to build and 2) expensive to maintain and 3) incredibly cheap to use. What is an ISP but a bunch of tiny switch boxes? We can see it costs nothing to set up or maintain in how prices scale with purchase power: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings?itemId=33 https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_price_rankings... At some point law makers should move in? I think the above proposal should make a good excuse for merciless price regulation.

digitaltrees 4y ago

Flip this around on the ISPs, no one is going to want to pay you for internet service if there arent interesting websites to visit...so the ISPs should pay each website that their users visit. Seems only fair since the product ISPs are offering is a conduit to the product customers actually want but dont currently have to pay for. It would make the Internet a lot less reliant on advertising.

Proven 4y ago

acd 4y ago

Commercial lobby groups in politicial setting should be banned. Lobbyism is a form of slow corrruption. Democracy is here to serve the voice of the people not promote corporate interest first.