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>Wouldn't it be harder for skilled Americans to find jobs here if they're competing with immigrants? You must have missed a paragraph or two of the article, se

by zeteo 15y ago

>Wouldn't it be harder for skilled Americans to find jobs here if they're competing with immigrants? You must have missed a paragraph or two of the article, see below. Wouldn't it be easier for skilled Americans to find jobs if there were more technology companies? "High-skill immigrants innovate, patent, and start new firms at higher rates than natives. At least one-quarter of the new firms in technology and science fields, from software and semiconductors to biotech, are founded by immigrants. In Silicon Valley, more than half of the high-tech start-ups were founded by immigrants. High skill immigrants especially with degrees in the fields of science, technology, engineering and mathematics (aka: STEM) create more jobs and higher wages for Americans."

sp332 15y ago
I don't have such a problem with founders moving here. Although I guess they might compete for investor money, I don't see that as such a big problem for our economy as competing with workers for jobs.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
geebee 15y ago
I'd be interested in seeing the breakdown of work-related vs non-work related immigrants. Even so... my point above (about the RAND study) is that objective research shows that Americans are avoiding STEM graduate degrees for rational, market-driven reasons. While it's wonderful that high skill immigrants are innovating, patenting, and starting new firms, that may simply reflect the declining appeal of STEM fields to people who have a wider choice of career paths (ie., if we make it easier for smart immigrants to come here as STEM workers than as lawyers, it's not surprising that immigrants show a higher activity in STEM than in law). The US may be locking itself into a vicious cycle - the appeal of STEM careers declines, so Americans begin to choose other fields. This creates a shortage, which leads to an increased call for more visas. This provides a stopgap measure that prevents the market correction that would might make STEM more appealing (relative to law, medicine, etc), causing even more Americans (well, anyone with choice) to avoid the field, which leads to calls for even more visas... In many ways, I hate making this argument, because on a personal (moral) level, I feel immensely welcoming to immigrants, especially well educated immigrants who make a wonderful contribution. And as a matter of policy, yeah, it'd be nuts to refuse entry to such a remarkably productive workforce - the US is in trouble economically, and the fact that so many top people still want to come here is one of our best cards! But at the same time, when I set aside my emotions and take a cold, rational look at this, I do think that the emphasis on STEM immigration may very well be deterring young Americans (or, again, anyone here with the ability to choose a profession over STEM) from entering the field. And I believe that this could be dangerous to the US in the long term - sure, it's stupid to turn away our top graduate students, but shouldn't we see it as a crisis that so few of our graduate students in STEM fields are coming up through the ranks of our own educational system? I hope you can tell I feel a lot of ambivalence about this. I don't ask people to agree with me, I just ask that people recognize that this issue is complex, and absolutely is not a "no-brainer"
- zeteo 15y ago
  It's not the emphasis on STEM immigration that's keeping young Americans from these jobs, it's the piss-poor state of math education in the average US K-12. I was a calculus TA in college and was amazed at the proportion of prospective science majors who couldn't deal with variables and fractions; need I add they had all been educated here? Until that gets fixed (and it will take at least one generation, if it happens), you've got to fill the jobs somehow, you know.
  - geebee 15y ago
    That's a factor, but are you sure it's 100% the piss-poor state of math education? I'm not sure if you've read the RAND study I mentioned... here's a link: http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html Now, this study doesn't mention anything about immigration systems, it just concludes that the aversion to STEM graduate degrees (particularly PhDs) is market driven. So to me, there are a few factors here: - Our K-12 system failing to produce graduates that can go on to advanced study in STEM - The declining appeal of STEM careers relative to other options available to the best and brightest - The relationship between the decline of the appeal of STEM fields and the increasing use of visas to fill these positions (for instance, the RAND study makes recommendations for changes to PhD programs... but these programs will be able to resist change if they have the power to bestow visas). I'm not at all claiming to have a definitive answer here, but I do think you've gone way too far in attributing it to the decline of math education in the US. I would never try to argue that you haven't identified a major factor, but I think your claim that this is the only factor or even the single overwhelming factor is weak, especially in light of the RAND study. As for filling the jobs... well, I haven't argued that we shouldn't base immigration on job skills, I've argued the opposite! However, I do think we need to consider the possible impact of emphasizing one particular field (STEM) over another, and make sure that we aren't using these visas to the extent that the prevent the market correction that would - slowly as you've pointed out - improve the appeal of STEM careers and bring "Americans" (by which I mean people living here with broad choice of career paths) back into this field.
    - 15y ago

by zeteo 15y ago

sp332 15y ago

I don't have such a problem with founders moving here. Although I guess they might compete for investor money, I don't see that as such a big problem for our economy as competing with workers for jobs.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]

geebee 15y ago

I'd be interested in seeing the breakdown of work-related vs non-work related immigrants. Even so... my point above (about the RAND study) is that objective research shows that Americans are avoiding STEM graduate degrees for rational, market-driven reasons. While it's wonderful that high skill immigrants are innovating, patenting, and starting new firms, that may simply reflect the declining appeal of STEM fields to people who have a wider choice of career paths (ie., if we make it easier for smart immigrants to come here as STEM workers than as lawyers, it's not surprising that immigrants show a higher activity in STEM than in law). The US may be locking itself into a vicious cycle - the appeal of STEM careers declines, so Americans begin to choose other fields. This creates a shortage, which leads to an increased call for more visas. This provides a stopgap measure that prevents the market correction that would might make STEM more appealing (relative to law, medicine, etc), causing even more Americans (well, anyone with choice) to avoid the field, which leads to calls for even more visas... In many ways, I hate making this argument, because on a personal (moral) level, I feel immensely welcoming to immigrants, especially well educated immigrants who make a wonderful contribution. And as a matter of policy, yeah, it'd be nuts to refuse entry to such a remarkably productive workforce - the US is in trouble economically, and the fact that so many top people still want to come here is one of our best cards! But at the same time, when I set aside my emotions and take a cold, rational look at this, I do think that the emphasis on STEM immigration may very well be deterring young Americans (or, again, anyone here with the ability to choose a profession over STEM) from entering the field. And I believe that this could be dangerous to the US in the long term - sure, it's stupid to turn away our top graduate students, but shouldn't we see it as a crisis that so few of our graduate students in STEM fields are coming up through the ranks of our own educational system? I hope you can tell I feel a lot of ambivalence about this. I don't ask people to agree with me, I just ask that people recognize that this issue is complex, and absolutely is not a "no-brainer"

zeteo 15y ago
It's not the emphasis on STEM immigration that's keeping young Americans from these jobs, it's the piss-poor state of math education in the average US K-12. I was a calculus TA in college and was amazed at the proportion of prospective science majors who couldn't deal with variables and fractions; need I add they had all been educated here? Until that gets fixed (and it will take at least one generation, if it happens), you've got to fill the jobs somehow, you know.
- geebee 15y ago
  That's a factor, but are you sure it's 100% the piss-poor state of math education? I'm not sure if you've read the RAND study I mentioned... here's a link: http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html http://www.rand.org/pubs/issue_papers/IP241.html Now, this study doesn't mention anything about immigration systems, it just concludes that the aversion to STEM graduate degrees (particularly PhDs) is market driven. So to me, there are a few factors here: - Our K-12 system failing to produce graduates that can go on to advanced study in STEM - The declining appeal of STEM careers relative to other options available to the best and brightest - The relationship between the decline of the appeal of STEM fields and the increasing use of visas to fill these positions (for instance, the RAND study makes recommendations for changes to PhD programs... but these programs will be able to resist change if they have the power to bestow visas). I'm not at all claiming to have a definitive answer here, but I do think you've gone way too far in attributing it to the decline of math education in the US. I would never try to argue that you haven't identified a major factor, but I think your claim that this is the only factor or even the single overwhelming factor is weak, especially in light of the RAND study. As for filling the jobs... well, I haven't argued that we shouldn't base immigration on job skills, I've argued the opposite! However, I do think we need to consider the possible impact of emphasizing one particular field (STEM) over another, and make sure that we aren't using these visas to the extent that the prevent the market correction that would - slowly as you've pointed out - improve the appeal of STEM careers and bring "Americans" (by which I mean people living here with broad choice of career paths) back into this field.
  - 15y ago