3 ms·

I’ve literally got the 80286 PRM in my room with me, the actual book, not a printout. What do you think in there is a “far worse protocol” than this abomination

by anyfoo 4y ago

I’ve literally got the 80286 PRM in my room with me, the actual book, not a printout. What do you think in there is a “far worse protocol” than this abomination? And then the 286 came along at a time where the x86 architecture was already enormously successful, part of the ubiquitous IBM PC. The 8086 on the other hand was a much simpler, completely new CPU competing with many others. There aren’t many warts in the 8086 itself, whose data sheet is a few pages instead of a book (segmentation was a plus at the time because it allowed a large address space and some easy multitasking without relocation in such a simple CPU), and still it actually only won out against other CPUs for marginal reasons. If 68k had been ready for the PC, that would likely have been it. Intel had no capital at the time to inflict such an insanity to people. And why is patching the mask in a later revision of the chip such a big deal anyway?[1] Just look at the solution you proposed. Always gradually adjusting SS and SP in a loop until SP reaches 0, just because an NMI may hit. That’s untenable. [1] Interrupt latency is only slightly increased on MOV/POP SS. That shouldn’t happen so much that the much more often CLI/STI blocks with many instructions in them aren’t a bigger concern. And the 8086 wasn’t exactly low latency anyway.

ajross 4y ago
Why is this an argument? Is it really so upsetting to you that I thought this was a weird thing to fix at the mask level? It... was. Chips in 1978 had bugs like this everywhere, and we all just dealt with it. You mentioned the 68k, for example, while forgetting the interrupt state bug that forced the introduction of the 68010! Motorola, when faced with a critical bug that would affect OS implementors in a way they could technically work around (c.f. Apollo, who used two chips) but didn't want to, didn't even bother to fix the thing and made them buy the upgraded version (obviously in some sense the '010 was the equivalent "fix it in the mask" thing). They were selling chips that couldn't restart a hardware fault well into the late 80's. > Just look at the solution you proposed. That wasn't the solution I proposed. I proposed just having the stack reserve an interrupt frame at the top and setting SP to zero before changing SS. The code I showed was just proof that even putative users[1] who couldn't change the OS would be able to work around it. [1] There were none. This was several years before MS-DOS; no one was shipping 8086 hardware in any significant quantities, certainly not to a market with binary software compatibility concerns.
- anyfoo 4y ago
  > Chips in 1978 had bugs like this everywhere, and we all just dealt with it. Like what? > Motorola, when faced with a critical bug [...] (c.f. Apollo, who used two chips) I am well aware of the Apollo two chip hack, but I was not aware that this was considered a "critical bug". I thought the original 68000 just did not support virtual memory with paging, and the 68010 introduced that. Given that you needed an external MMU if you wanted to do any kind of virtual memory, which most clients did not care about, and that the 8086 and many if not most contemporaries in that class did not support any kind of virtual memory either, that seemed like a reasonable limitation to me. The kicker is, I actually own a Siemens PC-D, a marvelous machine that has an 80186 (the differences to an 8086 don't matter here), and an actual external MMU made up of discrete 74 series logic chips. It runs SINIX, and has full memory protection through that MMU. And yet it does not support paging either, because by the time the external circuitry recognized a fault, the CPU had already moved on further. The only thing SINIX did was kill the faulting process. > while forgetting the interrupt state bug that forced the introduction of the 68010 Are we actually talking about the same thing then? The Apollo hack I know was because after a bus error, not an interrupt, you could not restart the faulting instruction, presumably because by the time the fault was recognized, the CPU had already continued executing an indeterminate amount. This does not matter for regular interrupts, since they are not synchronized to running code and do not restart instructions. It would have been a pretty useless chip otherwise, and yet it thrived even after its descendant was introduced. The point is, it seemed to me Apollo really wanted to use the 68000 for something it did not support (yet), and other users of the 68000 were not affected (most did not even have the MMU). It was a marvelous, unique hack, that I've actually never seen fully documented or confirmed anywhere (please let me know if you have). The PC would have been amongst the ones not affected, and the chip even spun off variants long after the 68010 was released, not having paged virtual memory just wasn't a dealbreaker for most. > That wasn't the solution I proposed. I proposed just having the stack reserve an interrupt frame at the top and setting SP to zero before changing SS. The code I showed was just proof that even putative users[1] who couldn't change the OS would be able to work around it. Yes, you proposed every single piece of code switching a stack, not just OS code, to do some careful dance whenever it switches the stack, on top of making sure that every stack in existence has the proper amount of unused space at its base to support that. And then all interrupting code would have to immediately switch to its own stack (which, while required today, wasn't necessary back then, mainly because all code ran with all privileges and plenty of stack). While taking care that all registers can be properly restored on the way back, of course. Or only the NMI handler, but then you would have to additionally have to save and restore the interrupt flag around your stack switching. But okay, let's agree to disagree then. You say there is a reasonable software workaround, I say there is not, for what to me was a pretty clear design bug. Albeit one that was also easily fixed. In my mind, Intel did the sane thing back then by simply patching it up. Can't say that it hurt them.

by anyfoo 4y ago

ajross 4y ago

Why is this an argument? Is it really so upsetting to you that I thought this was a weird thing to fix at the mask level? It... was. Chips in 1978 had bugs like this everywhere, and we all just dealt with it. You mentioned the 68k, for example, while forgetting the interrupt state bug that forced the introduction of the 68010! Motorola, when faced with a critical bug that would affect OS implementors in a way they could technically work around (c.f. Apollo, who used two chips) but didn't want to, didn't even bother to fix the thing and made them buy the upgraded version (obviously in some sense the '010 was the equivalent "fix it in the mask" thing). They were selling chips that couldn't restart a hardware fault well into the late 80's. > Just look at the solution you proposed. That wasn't the solution I proposed. I proposed just having the stack reserve an interrupt frame at the top and setting SP to zero before changing SS. The code I showed was just proof that even putative users[1] who couldn't change the OS would be able to work around it. [1] There were none. This was several years before MS-DOS; no one was shipping 8086 hardware in any significant quantities, certainly not to a market with binary software compatibility concerns.

anyfoo 4y ago
> Chips in 1978 had bugs like this everywhere, and we all just dealt with it. Like what? > Motorola, when faced with a critical bug [...] (c.f. Apollo, who used two chips) I am well aware of the Apollo two chip hack, but I was not aware that this was considered a "critical bug". I thought the original 68000 just did not support virtual memory with paging, and the 68010 introduced that. Given that you needed an external MMU if you wanted to do any kind of virtual memory, which most clients did not care about, and that the 8086 and many if not most contemporaries in that class did not support any kind of virtual memory either, that seemed like a reasonable limitation to me. The kicker is, I actually own a Siemens PC-D, a marvelous machine that has an 80186 (the differences to an 8086 don't matter here), and an actual external MMU made up of discrete 74 series logic chips. It runs SINIX, and has full memory protection through that MMU. And yet it does not support paging either, because by the time the external circuitry recognized a fault, the CPU had already moved on further. The only thing SINIX did was kill the faulting process. > while forgetting the interrupt state bug that forced the introduction of the 68010 Are we actually talking about the same thing then? The Apollo hack I know was because after a bus error, not an interrupt, you could not restart the faulting instruction, presumably because by the time the fault was recognized, the CPU had already continued executing an indeterminate amount. This does not matter for regular interrupts, since they are not synchronized to running code and do not restart instructions. It would have been a pretty useless chip otherwise, and yet it thrived even after its descendant was introduced. The point is, it seemed to me Apollo really wanted to use the 68000 for something it did not support (yet), and other users of the 68000 were not affected (most did not even have the MMU). It was a marvelous, unique hack, that I've actually never seen fully documented or confirmed anywhere (please let me know if you have). The PC would have been amongst the ones not affected, and the chip even spun off variants long after the 68010 was released, not having paged virtual memory just wasn't a dealbreaker for most. > That wasn't the solution I proposed. I proposed just having the stack reserve an interrupt frame at the top and setting SP to zero before changing SS. The code I showed was just proof that even putative users[1] who couldn't change the OS would be able to work around it. Yes, you proposed every single piece of code switching a stack, not just OS code, to do some careful dance whenever it switches the stack, on top of making sure that every stack in existence has the proper amount of unused space at its base to support that. And then all interrupting code would have to immediately switch to its own stack (which, while required today, wasn't necessary back then, mainly because all code ran with all privileges and plenty of stack). While taking care that all registers can be properly restored on the way back, of course. Or only the NMI handler, but then you would have to additionally have to save and restore the interrupt flag around your stack switching. But okay, let's agree to disagree then. You say there is a reasonable software workaround, I say there is not, for what to me was a pretty clear design bug. Albeit one that was also easily fixed. In my mind, Intel did the sane thing back then by simply patching it up. Can't say that it hurt them.