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That’s an overly reductive to prove a biased point. Typical users do not have the same motivations as programmers. The market for connected devices does not hav

That’s an overly reductive to prove a biased point. Typical users do not have the same motivations as programmers. The market for connected devices does not have to conform to your expectations. It’s really exhausting pointing out how your argument would effectively force others to produce what satisfies your sensibilities and to protect what you feel is sacrosanct. Programming is “just math”. I don’t need an 8088 to prove its adding, subtracting, comparing memory addresses. All the cognitive structure and literalness of the past has nothing to do with software and everything to do with hardware engineering. That the industry has not clung to your nostalgic ideal does not mean there is a tyrannical conspiracy. It means the industry evolved. Perhaps you’re just on the wrong career path?

sam0x17 4y ago
> Typical users do not have the same motivations as programmers. This is actually very untrue in my experience. I can't tell you how many "normal users" ask me whether there is an open source equivalent they can use so they don't have to pay for X, for example, and many have shown interest in doing what they can to optimize their setup and/or reduce their financial burden by getting smarter about how things are set up.
- compiskey 4y ago
  Oooh anecdata time; I can’t tell you how many times software engineers have just put libs in a dep file to avoid recreating the wheel. Reusing existing software is not equivalent to expecting users who want share pics to learn from 8088 on up. In fact it’s quite the opposite; it’s good engineering to not waste time recreating the wheel.
- grumple 4y ago
  > I can't tell you how many "normal users" ask me whether there is an open source equivalent they can use so they don't have to pay for X I don't think I've ever had a non-dev ask me about "open source". Asking for free alternatives, sure, but it's very rare that I'd recommend open source alternatives for whatever normal people are doing.
  - sam0x17 4y ago
    I've had many people come to me asking for "that open source office thing instead of word"
    - grumple 4y ago
      Have you really? I worked in an org full of fairly technical non-devs and never had someone ask that. Mostly because corporations usually have no problem paying for Word... and google docs exists.
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  Thinking about the motivation of programmers. Some programmer did make the changes to limit AirDrop... Like there is a room in a meat factory where animals go in alive and come out dead. Who was that and to what extent is he responsible?
- AlphaSite 4y ago
  I don’t think users intrinsically care about open source, what they want is free. If it’s closed source then that’s probably ok too.
saiya-jin 4y ago
Not grokking this knee-jerk reaction to freedom a slightest bit. Freedom to do whatever you want with your own device (which is something companies like Apple and manufacturers of ie household appliances will contest more and more) doesn't mean everybody wants immediately hack the hell out of it. Installing app from any source is not outrageous, I use it for my Pioneer receiver who would otherwise have no remote, I use it for my paragliding variometer. And I could use it for anything else I chose to, since I am free to decide. The list of what I can do with similar other devices but can't do with the most expensive of them is quite long. This is not expert level, experienced beginner at best (not for Apple products obviously since jailbreaking is advanced topic). Due to above also being 100% stuck with only Apple payment system which takes 30% all the time vs having the freedom to choose. This can't be more un-american (at least to ideal, reality is another topic). Life for others does not need to conform to your ideal - that goes both ways. Closed vs open systems to 'hackers' have a special meaning to many people here on this forum. And yes these topics are exhausting to us all, explaining ad nauseum why more freedom is better for users especially long term, and why Apple et al desperately don't want users to have it.
- compiskey 4y ago
  It would require Apple engineer for the use case, and opens them to legal risk in our society. So the freedom angle to them is they don’t have to schedule the meetings and be compelled to speak the questions and answers to output what you want, or open themselves to repercussions of a hack in a stack that would never be there if they’d not built it. Because computers are also real resources they’re making devices for a broader audience than computer hackers. The hobbyist hardware scene has a questionable set of ethics given the long term impact of meeting hobbyist demands to consume whatever number of widgets they want, but that’s another thread. If you’re arguing for an open boot loader, I’m here for it, but you’re going to need to change law to force it; they can freely stick to their choices. Posting grievances such as yours; we’re not oblivious as you seem to believe but HN is not a forum of real influence, preaching to the choir is not influencing anyone that needs to be influenced. But iOS is a result of workers speaking free of coercion. If the output is not up to your expectations… I dunno what to say except other people don’t have to put you first, you know? Freedom equals tribalism. It’s a demand of freedom to allow tribalism not one size fits all literalism. deal with it gif

sam0x17 4y ago

> Typical users do not have the same motivations as programmers. This is actually very untrue in my experience. I can't tell you how many "normal users" ask me whether there is an open source equivalent they can use so they don't have to pay for X, for example, and many have shown interest in doing what they can to optimize their setup and/or reduce their financial burden by getting smarter about how things are set up.

compiskey 4y ago
Oooh anecdata time; I can’t tell you how many times software engineers have just put libs in a dep file to avoid recreating the wheel. Reusing existing software is not equivalent to expecting users who want share pics to learn from 8088 on up. In fact it’s quite the opposite; it’s good engineering to not waste time recreating the wheel.
grumple 4y ago
> I can't tell you how many "normal users" ask me whether there is an open source equivalent they can use so they don't have to pay for X I don't think I've ever had a non-dev ask me about "open source". Asking for free alternatives, sure, but it's very rare that I'd recommend open source alternatives for whatever normal people are doing.
- sam0x17 4y ago
  I've had many people come to me asking for "that open source office thing instead of word"
  - grumple 4y ago
    Have you really? I worked in an org full of fairly technical non-devs and never had someone ask that. Mostly because corporations usually have no problem paying for Word... and google docs exists.
Silverback_VII 4y ago
Thinking about the motivation of programmers. Some programmer did make the changes to limit AirDrop... Like there is a room in a meat factory where animals go in alive and come out dead. Who was that and to what extent is he responsible?
AlphaSite 4y ago
I don’t think users intrinsically care about open source, what they want is free. If it’s closed source then that’s probably ok too.

saiya-jin 4y ago

Not grokking this knee-jerk reaction to freedom a slightest bit. Freedom to do whatever you want with your own device (which is something companies like Apple and manufacturers of ie household appliances will contest more and more) doesn't mean everybody wants immediately hack the hell out of it. Installing app from any source is not outrageous, I use it for my Pioneer receiver who would otherwise have no remote, I use it for my paragliding variometer. And I could use it for anything else I chose to, since I am free to decide. The list of what I can do with similar other devices but can't do with the most expensive of them is quite long. This is not expert level, experienced beginner at best (not for Apple products obviously since jailbreaking is advanced topic). Due to above also being 100% stuck with only Apple payment system which takes 30% all the time vs having the freedom to choose. This can't be more un-american (at least to ideal, reality is another topic). Life for others does not need to conform to your ideal - that goes both ways. Closed vs open systems to 'hackers' have a special meaning to many people here on this forum. And yes these topics are exhausting to us all, explaining ad nauseum why more freedom is better for users especially long term, and why Apple et al desperately don't want users to have it.

compiskey 4y ago
It would require Apple engineer for the use case, and opens them to legal risk in our society. So the freedom angle to them is they don’t have to schedule the meetings and be compelled to speak the questions and answers to output what you want, or open themselves to repercussions of a hack in a stack that would never be there if they’d not built it. Because computers are also real resources they’re making devices for a broader audience than computer hackers. The hobbyist hardware scene has a questionable set of ethics given the long term impact of meeting hobbyist demands to consume whatever number of widgets they want, but that’s another thread. If you’re arguing for an open boot loader, I’m here for it, but you’re going to need to change law to force it; they can freely stick to their choices. Posting grievances such as yours; we’re not oblivious as you seem to believe but HN is not a forum of real influence, preaching to the choir is not influencing anyone that needs to be influenced. But iOS is a result of workers speaking free of coercion. If the output is not up to your expectations… I dunno what to say except other people don’t have to put you first, you know? Freedom equals tribalism. It’s a demand of freedom to allow tribalism not one size fits all literalism. deal with it gif