4 ms·

The problem is that the alternative (Google) is worse.

by Tijdreiziger 4y ago

alphabetting 4y ago
Pretty sure Google has been mostly out of China since Operation Aurora.
- falcolas 4y ago
  They're still trying to get back in. See project Dragonfly for example.
  - DashAnimal 4y ago
    Dragonfly was discontinued in 2018, MAYBE mid 2019. That is 3-4 years ago.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      And? They were booted out of China over 12 years ago. 3 years ago isn't that long, in that timeline. Given their known attempts to get back in, it's likely there are other such secret initiatives we don't know about. China represents a huge potential market for Google that their investors won't let leadership forget about.
      - sidibe 4y ago
        3 years ago some team was probing reopening search in China and when more employees found out about it they leaked and protested the project, shutting it down. Hardly seems like a point against Google. > China represents a huge potential market for Google that their investors won't let leadership forget about. China represents a huge potential market that Google investors have already given up on because no one is expecting that market to reopen to Google any time soon
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    Strawman. A large chunk of Apple's revenue comes from China. The majority of assembly occurs in China. Google does a rounding error of business in China - assembly for Nest devices.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      All I've been able to find on "Google moves pixel manufacturing out of China" is rumors. Rumors they were moving some of them to Vietnam. Rumors that they were moving some to India. But no official notification that they've been moved. No notes on their storefront on where the pixel phones are being manufactured. The most convincing article I found was an un-sourced piece from "hothardware" (and nothing shouts legitimacy in a source than a name like that) which says that only the budget pixel phones were actually moved to Vietnam, the high end versions are still in China. As such, I have to assume that their production is still largely occurring in China. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though. As a side note about the strawman accusation; pointing out Google's attempts to re-enter the lucrative Chinese market when the parent is using their absence to justify the position of "Google's Better" is absolutely relevant.
      - jsnell 4y ago
        The fact is that Google left China 12 years ago and never returned. They gave up on the search ad revenue in the world's second largest economy. They gave up on the app store revenue in the world's largest smartphone market. That's a hell of a thing for a big company to do as a matter of principle. Some exec tried to run a project to re-enter China with search, and the project was axed the moment it became widely known in the company. All through that time Tim Cook hasn't just been betting on China for manufacturing, but are addicted to the Chinese revenue. Apple is being held over the barrel by the CCP, both sides know it, and Apple are not doing anything to wean themselves off. As a result, Apple gives user data to Chinese authorities on requests thousands of times per year, and accept the vast majority of data requests [0]. In comparison, Google has given data on 2 accounts in the last decade. [1] Isn't it pretty obvious that we'd like more companies to behave like Google in this situation, and no companies to act like Apple? Why are you trying to tear down the company that's done the right thing in this situation? [0] https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html [1] https://transparencyreport.google.com/user-data/overview?hl=en&user_requests_report_period=series:requests,accounts;authority:CN;time:&lu=user_requests_report_period https://transparencyreport.google.com/user-data/overview?hl=...
mhoad 4y ago
It’s not even a little bit close. Go on… tell me about how Google spent millions lobbying against human rights or worked with authoritarian regimes or had workers killing themselves in such high numbers that they had to reconfigure their workplaces. Google did what Apple should have ten years ago and pulled out of China when faced with similar problems.
- falcolas 4y ago
  Google builds phones at Foxconn too. Google has also worked on many projects in order to appeal to China's government as well.
  - xvector 4y ago
    Google doesn’t position themselves as some savior of mankind and human rights. They don’t market grandiose claims about privacy and ethics like Apple does. I’m a bit more okay with Google because at least they aren’t lying through their teeth and hoping their customers are dumb enough to believe them.
    - falcolas 4y ago
      > Before Google China's establishment, Google.com itself was accessible, even though much of its content was not accessible because of censorship. > Because of its self-imposed censorship, whenever people searched for prohibited Chinese keywords on a blocked list maintained by the PRC government, google.cn displayed at the bottom of the page (translated): In accordance with local laws, regulations and policies, part of the search result is not shown. Some searches, such as (as of June 2009) "Tank Man" were blocked entirely, with only the message, "Search results may not comply with the relevant laws, regulations and policy, and cannot be displayed" appearing. > Do no evil. (still a part of their public motto) > In their first letter to shareholders, our founders highlighted Google’s goal to “develop services that significantly improve the lives of as many people as possible.” This vision continues to guide all of us at Google. We believe in technology’s power and potential to have a profoundly positive impact across the world. Google has capitulated to the Chinese government, taken "moral high ground" via their doodles (but only when it won't offend the censors), and absolutely sees itself as a savior of mankind.
foepys 4y ago
Is it? With the Android Open Source Project you can create your own completely Google-free Android distribution that you can install on quite a lot of devices. Not that I like Google, I actually actively dislike it and hate all the anti-competitive things they did (with Android, too), but let's stay with the facts here.
- lancesells 4y ago
  > Project you can create your own completely Google-free Android distribution that you can install on quite a lot of devices This is like saying you can eat for free for the rest of your life by just starting a farm. Sure, it's possible but it's out of the reach of most the population.
  - foepys 4y ago
    You can download one right now, for free at lineageos.org. So I don't get your point
- esskay 4y ago
  The problem is you're still using Android. You can paint it up however you like, it's still Android, and for many iOS users thats still an instant nope.
- bentcorner 4y ago
  Even with an AOSP rom, can't the same thing happen here? "Nearby Share" seem to require Google Play store functionality: https://support.google.com/files/answer/10514188?hl=en#zippy=%2Chow-nearby-share-handles-your-data https://support.google.com/files/answer/10514188?hl=en#zippy... I suppose the alternative AOSP rom wouldn't even have "Nearby Share" as a feature? I suppose in that case you could use some other protocol/service that wasn't bound to Google (maybe Briar?).
PartiallyTyped 4y ago
Is this true even if say you use GrapheneOS?
- pshirshov 4y ago
  GrapheneOS and its GApps sandbox are awesome, highly recommend. At this point everything just works there, including network location provider, with only one exception - google pay won't allow you to add a card for contactless payments in most of the cases. But GrapheneOS is not at fault here.
ricardobayes 4y ago
I'm genuinely curious, how so?
lern_too_spel 4y ago
Aside from avoiding China, Google gives users control of their phones. That makes Google leagues better. Not that Google is good — Apple just sets a particularly low bar.
yamtaddle 4y ago
In general the problem is that there are very few players in even the same general space as Apple, and practically none of them seem to really be chasing the same market as Apple, so for many Apple users there's basically no suitable substitute. It lets them have entire dud releases (several models in a row of macbooks, for instance) but if you start looking around for alternatives it quickly becomes clear you'll gain two or three problems for every one you avoid, even when Apple releases an unusually-bad version of one of their products. It's like that with everything. "Apple spies on you more than you might think"—OK, that's bad and I'd rather they didn't, but who's better? Hell, who's not worse? And god no, not Linux, I did that for over a decade and I mean a product that you can pay for to solve problems for you, like computers and tools generally are supposed to do, not one you can spend a bunch of time manually tuning and working around various limitations and problems and still not have something as useful as Apple's stuff in actual day-to-day real-world life. I want to solve problems, I don't want another hobby of maintaining my problem-solving machine, that crap's why people hate computers so much. No surprise it's like this, really—there are two smartphone operating systems and three viable desktop operating systems (I'm being generous and counting ChromeOS) controlled by three total vendors. Of course the market's totally fucked up.

The problem is that the alternative (Google) is worse.

alphabetting 4y ago

Pretty sure Google has been mostly out of China since Operation Aurora.

falcolas 4y ago
They're still trying to get back in. See project Dragonfly for example.
- DashAnimal 4y ago
  Dragonfly was discontinued in 2018, MAYBE mid 2019. That is 3-4 years ago.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    And? They were booted out of China over 12 years ago. 3 years ago isn't that long, in that timeline. Given their known attempts to get back in, it's likely there are other such secret initiatives we don't know about. China represents a huge potential market for Google that their investors won't let leadership forget about.
    - sidibe 4y ago
      3 years ago some team was probing reopening search in China and when more employees found out about it they leaked and protested the project, shutting it down. Hardly seems like a point against Google. > China represents a huge potential market for Google that their investors won't let leadership forget about. China represents a huge potential market that Google investors have already given up on because no one is expecting that market to reopen to Google any time soon
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  Strawman. A large chunk of Apple's revenue comes from China. The majority of assembly occurs in China. Google does a rounding error of business in China - assembly for Nest devices.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    All I've been able to find on "Google moves pixel manufacturing out of China" is rumors. Rumors they were moving some of them to Vietnam. Rumors that they were moving some to India. But no official notification that they've been moved. No notes on their storefront on where the pixel phones are being manufactured. The most convincing article I found was an un-sourced piece from "hothardware" (and nothing shouts legitimacy in a source than a name like that) which says that only the budget pixel phones were actually moved to Vietnam, the high end versions are still in China. As such, I have to assume that their production is still largely occurring in China. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong though. As a side note about the strawman accusation; pointing out Google's attempts to re-enter the lucrative Chinese market when the parent is using their absence to justify the position of "Google's Better" is absolutely relevant.
    - jsnell 4y ago
      The fact is that Google left China 12 years ago and never returned. They gave up on the search ad revenue in the world's second largest economy. They gave up on the app store revenue in the world's largest smartphone market. That's a hell of a thing for a big company to do as a matter of principle. Some exec tried to run a project to re-enter China with search, and the project was axed the moment it became widely known in the company. All through that time Tim Cook hasn't just been betting on China for manufacturing, but are addicted to the Chinese revenue. Apple is being held over the barrel by the CCP, both sides know it, and Apple are not doing anything to wean themselves off. As a result, Apple gives user data to Chinese authorities on requests thousands of times per year, and accept the vast majority of data requests [0]. In comparison, Google has given data on 2 accounts in the last decade. [1] Isn't it pretty obvious that we'd like more companies to behave like Google in this situation, and no companies to act like Apple? Why are you trying to tear down the company that's done the right thing in this situation? [0] https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/cn.html [1] https://transparencyreport.google.com/user-data/overview?hl=en&user_requests_report_period=series:requests,accounts;authority:CN;time:&lu=user_requests_report_period https://transparencyreport.google.com/user-data/overview?hl=...

mhoad 4y ago

It’s not even a little bit close. Go on… tell me about how Google spent millions lobbying against human rights or worked with authoritarian regimes or had workers killing themselves in such high numbers that they had to reconfigure their workplaces. Google did what Apple should have ten years ago and pulled out of China when faced with similar problems.

falcolas 4y ago
Google builds phones at Foxconn too. Google has also worked on many projects in order to appeal to China's government as well.
- xvector 4y ago
  Google doesn’t position themselves as some savior of mankind and human rights. They don’t market grandiose claims about privacy and ethics like Apple does. I’m a bit more okay with Google because at least they aren’t lying through their teeth and hoping their customers are dumb enough to believe them.
  - falcolas 4y ago
    > Before Google China's establishment, Google.com itself was accessible, even though much of its content was not accessible because of censorship. > Because of its self-imposed censorship, whenever people searched for prohibited Chinese keywords on a blocked list maintained by the PRC government, google.cn displayed at the bottom of the page (translated): In accordance with local laws, regulations and policies, part of the search result is not shown. Some searches, such as (as of June 2009) "Tank Man" were blocked entirely, with only the message, "Search results may not comply with the relevant laws, regulations and policy, and cannot be displayed" appearing. > Do no evil. (still a part of their public motto) > In their first letter to shareholders, our founders highlighted Google’s goal to “develop services that significantly improve the lives of as many people as possible.” This vision continues to guide all of us at Google. We believe in technology’s power and potential to have a profoundly positive impact across the world. Google has capitulated to the Chinese government, taken "moral high ground" via their doodles (but only when it won't offend the censors), and absolutely sees itself as a savior of mankind.

foepys 4y ago

Is it? With the Android Open Source Project you can create your own completely Google-free Android distribution that you can install on quite a lot of devices. Not that I like Google, I actually actively dislike it and hate all the anti-competitive things they did (with Android, too), but let's stay with the facts here.

lancesells 4y ago
> Project you can create your own completely Google-free Android distribution that you can install on quite a lot of devices This is like saying you can eat for free for the rest of your life by just starting a farm. Sure, it's possible but it's out of the reach of most the population.
- foepys 4y ago
  You can download one right now, for free at lineageos.org. So I don't get your point
esskay 4y ago
The problem is you're still using Android. You can paint it up however you like, it's still Android, and for many iOS users thats still an instant nope.
bentcorner 4y ago
Even with an AOSP rom, can't the same thing happen here? "Nearby Share" seem to require Google Play store functionality: https://support.google.com/files/answer/10514188?hl=en#zippy=%2Chow-nearby-share-handles-your-data https://support.google.com/files/answer/10514188?hl=en#zippy... I suppose the alternative AOSP rom wouldn't even have "Nearby Share" as a feature? I suppose in that case you could use some other protocol/service that wasn't bound to Google (maybe Briar?).

PartiallyTyped 4y ago

Is this true even if say you use GrapheneOS?

pshirshov 4y ago
GrapheneOS and its GApps sandbox are awesome, highly recommend. At this point everything just works there, including network location provider, with only one exception - google pay won't allow you to add a card for contactless payments in most of the cases. But GrapheneOS is not at fault here.

ricardobayes 4y ago

I'm genuinely curious, how so?

lern_too_spel 4y ago

Aside from avoiding China, Google gives users control of their phones. That makes Google leagues better. Not that Google is good — Apple just sets a particularly low bar.

yamtaddle 4y ago

In general the problem is that there are very few players in even the same general space as Apple, and practically none of them seem to really be chasing the same market as Apple, so for many Apple users there's basically no suitable substitute. It lets them have entire dud releases (several models in a row of macbooks, for instance) but if you start looking around for alternatives it quickly becomes clear you'll gain two or three problems for every one you avoid, even when Apple releases an unusually-bad version of one of their products. It's like that with everything. "Apple spies on you more than you might think"—OK, that's bad and I'd rather they didn't, but who's better? Hell, who's not worse? And god no, not Linux, I did that for over a decade and I mean a product that you can pay for to solve problems for you, like computers and tools generally are supposed to do, not one you can spend a bunch of time manually tuning and working around various limitations and problems and still not have something as useful as Apple's stuff in actual day-to-day real-world life. I want to solve problems, I don't want another hobby of maintaining my problem-solving machine, that crap's why people hate computers so much. No surprise it's like this, really—there are two smartphone operating systems and three viable desktop operating systems (I'm being generous and counting ChromeOS) controlled by three total vendors. Of course the market's totally fucked up.