4 ms·

IMO this is the #1 takeaway: > I was trapped in a ‘normal’ mode of conversation - making small talk, being inoffensive, feeling aversion to being weird, respec

IMO this is the #1 takeaway: > I was trapped in a ‘normal’ mode of conversation - making small talk, being inoffensive, feeling aversion to being weird, respecting where I thought other people’s boundaries were. If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow! Everyone's life is different and has differently shaped spaces for relationships, interaction, etc. It's very common for people to be open to growing closer to some of their social circle, but be unsure about who to focus on. It can be you if you simply indicate you are also interested! On the other hand, I think this is more wrong than right: > A point I’ve made throughout is that this is a skill. Calling "Growing closer" a skill suggests it is a craft that 'you should' practice - but it's not. Growing closer requires work and attention and you will get better at it over time - but to think of it as a skill "you are doing" instead of a mutual process that advances only at the shared pace you are getting into manipulation. "Growing closer" is measured by the combined 'distance' by which you and the other person have adjusted your lives to be closer to one another. Maybe OP means that having deep and vulnerable conversations is a skill - and THAT I would agree with, but it has nothing to do with growing closer! You can have deep conversations with strangers (in fact it's often easier to have them with strangers). People who discover the power of intimacy in our atomized world risk accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain.

andreyk 4y ago
I think the "this is a skill" just refers to the various things needed to form and maintain friendships (being good at conversations, taking social initiative, following up, etc.) More of a set of skills. And to be fair, my interpretation is that it is a set of skills both people in the process of friendship possess and need to practice to make things work (it is possible after all to be a bad friend or a bad partner due to your own lack of effort or skill with eg communication or vulnerability).
- aeturnum 4y ago
  > * it is a set of skills both people in the process of friendship possess and need to practice to make things work* I think this is another example of the idea I am trying to critique (and warn against). This suggests that "the process of friendship" is a singular, universal thing that will look the same for all of us (or for all of our friendships). Or that friendship "working" is a straightforward series of opportunities for both people to "say yes" to something. I think that is wrong. Instead, I would say that over time a friendship is best understood as a series of opportunities to become more or less central to each other. Closeness and stability do not need to be linked! My oldest friend and I are extremely stable and comfortable with each other - but I would not say we are close. That we aren't close isn't a failure. It's a recognition that our lives have gone in different directions and that we most comfortably experience intimacy with other people. It's not a failure! Both our lives would be more frustrating if we relied on each other, with our divergent social worlds and approaches to life, for mutual understanding. > it is possible after all to be a bad friend or a bad partner due to your own lack of effort This is true, after a way, but I think it mis-orders things in a way that will lead to confusion. You are only a bad friend or partner if you don't make the effort that you agreed to make. If you are frustrated that you friend or partner isn't showing up in a way that you want them to show up in a way they have never said they will - you are the one who is doing "badly" in the relationship! Obviously, the reverse can also be true - people can promise things and not deliver, but the gap is between commitment and behavior. There is no bad or good level of energy to put into a relationship as long as you aren't deceptive about it. Basically, you aren't a bad friend or partner because of 'your own lack of effort' - putting more effort into engaging a way your significant other doesn't want would make things worse. It's the lack of alignment that causes the problem and, until that alignment is corrected, you can't know if more effort is actually what the other person would like.
ordu 4y ago
> to think of it as a skill "you are doing" instead of a mutual process that advances only at the shared pace you are getting into manipulation. A mutual process needs some coordinated actions from both sides. If I'm unable to play my part, then there will be no mutual process. I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but it is the next stage of education on "how to make friends". When you have skill to make friends, then you can think of how to apply it mutually. If you have no such skill, then all your argument about manipulation just doesn't apply. > If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow! There is a question of how to do it. I do not know, for example. Have no idea. Several times different people tried to make friends with me, I tried to be open for it, and it didn't work out.
- aeturnum 4y ago
  I don't know if I quite said it before - but I don't think a relationship just "succeeds" or "fails." A good relationship occupies the "right" amount of space in each person's life for that pair of people and also is, for each person, part of a larger healthier whole. There are many variables in this balancing act and we are all getting it at least a little 'wrong' all of the time. Generally, you can make any relationship closer by investing more time into it. But that means you risk getting stuck in trying to make a relationship fill a spot it won't ever fill. Often, that relationship will be "better" if you can accept less intimacy and hold it less tightly. There are people who can be extremely important to us, even if we can't take too much intimacy. > Several times different people tried to make friends with me, I tried to be open for it, and it didn't work out. Yah! Of course! This is always possible. Sometimes relationships just don't work for either person, despite everyone's best efforts. In those situations, the kindest thing we can do is gently invest less energy into the dynamic. Sometimes you can find an unexpected new relationship that's less than 'friendship' but still valuable and compelling. If you think about it like someone did something wrong, it's becomes more discouraging than it has to be.
  - ordu 4y ago
    > Sometimes relationships just don't work for either person, despite everyone's best efforts. This "sometimes" works for me every single time. I'm 40+ and never had any friends. > Sometimes you can find an unexpected new relationship that's less than 'friendship' but still valuable and compelling. I never experienced this as like. All my relationships end when we stop meeting each other at work. > If you think about it like someone did something wrong Oh... I do not think that I did something wrong. I think I didn't do something. Systematically. I'm not sure what exactly. The article gives some hints, but I need to think it through, to be sure. I spend my teens to figure out how to not do something wrong. I'm very good at it, I even do not need to think about it, I just do not do anything wrong. It became ingrained to such an extent, that I cannot even imagine what I can do wrong, because my mind suggests only "right" options. > Generally, you can make any relationship closer by investing more time into it. But that means you risk getting stuck in trying to make a relationship fill a spot it won't ever fill. Your wisdom probably very wise and useful, but only for people who already have some relationships and need to decide what to do with them next. I have no relationships and I do not believe I will, so all your advice is wasted on me. At the same time the article we discuss gives me something to think about. Yeah, I'm vulnerable and I'm not going to risk being hurt by a careless person only to get some intimacy. I'm not going to ask people weird questions, because they can ask them back. I mean, I can deal with it, I can wriggle out of any uncomfortable question, but it is kinda unfair to them if I ask but do not answer.
kelnos 4y ago
> Calling "Growing closer" a skill My take on it that the skill isn't the act of growing closer itself, but the actions you can take to elevate conversation above small talk and see if there could be greater compatibility there for a closer relationship. And that latter part is maybe a big part of the skill: I agree that just having a deep/vulnerable conversation isn't going to give you a close friendship, but I think that's a necessary step on the path. Determining whether or not -- from those deeper conversations -- whether or not a deeper friendship is going to develop is also a skill worth mastering. (Maybe the author did actually mean what you thought, in which case I agree with you... and so I like my explanation better.)
balaji1 4y ago
> work and attention Attention is such a good choice of word. Attention with memory is key. I feel memory/remembering is the work, because we are constantly flooded with new things all day. Otherwise, once I am out of a conversation, I am into another app or meeting. > accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain. Damn that's true. Though I think our instinct is to try to connect on a deeper level, and with just good intentions. We can be good friends with a lot of people. And be close to very few. That's ok, and better to be clear.

andreyk 4y ago

I think the "this is a skill" just refers to the various things needed to form and maintain friendships (being good at conversations, taking social initiative, following up, etc.) More of a set of skills. And to be fair, my interpretation is that it is a set of skills both people in the process of friendship possess and need to practice to make things work (it is possible after all to be a bad friend or a bad partner due to your own lack of effort or skill with eg communication or vulnerability).

aeturnum 4y ago
> * it is a set of skills both people in the process of friendship possess and need to practice to make things work* I think this is another example of the idea I am trying to critique (and warn against). This suggests that "the process of friendship" is a singular, universal thing that will look the same for all of us (or for all of our friendships). Or that friendship "working" is a straightforward series of opportunities for both people to "say yes" to something. I think that is wrong. Instead, I would say that over time a friendship is best understood as a series of opportunities to become more or less central to each other. Closeness and stability do not need to be linked! My oldest friend and I are extremely stable and comfortable with each other - but I would not say we are close. That we aren't close isn't a failure. It's a recognition that our lives have gone in different directions and that we most comfortably experience intimacy with other people. It's not a failure! Both our lives would be more frustrating if we relied on each other, with our divergent social worlds and approaches to life, for mutual understanding. > it is possible after all to be a bad friend or a bad partner due to your own lack of effort This is true, after a way, but I think it mis-orders things in a way that will lead to confusion. You are only a bad friend or partner if you don't make the effort that you agreed to make. If you are frustrated that you friend or partner isn't showing up in a way that you want them to show up in a way they have never said they will - you are the one who is doing "badly" in the relationship! Obviously, the reverse can also be true - people can promise things and not deliver, but the gap is between commitment and behavior. There is no bad or good level of energy to put into a relationship as long as you aren't deceptive about it. Basically, you aren't a bad friend or partner because of 'your own lack of effort' - putting more effort into engaging a way your significant other doesn't want would make things worse. It's the lack of alignment that causes the problem and, until that alignment is corrected, you can't know if more effort is actually what the other person would like.

ordu 4y ago

> to think of it as a skill "you are doing" instead of a mutual process that advances only at the shared pace you are getting into manipulation. A mutual process needs some coordinated actions from both sides. If I'm unable to play my part, then there will be no mutual process. I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but it is the next stage of education on "how to make friends". When you have skill to make friends, then you can think of how to apply it mutually. If you have no such skill, then all your argument about manipulation just doesn't apply. > If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow! There is a question of how to do it. I do not know, for example. Have no idea. Several times different people tried to make friends with me, I tried to be open for it, and it didn't work out.

aeturnum 4y ago
I don't know if I quite said it before - but I don't think a relationship just "succeeds" or "fails." A good relationship occupies the "right" amount of space in each person's life for that pair of people and also is, for each person, part of a larger healthier whole. There are many variables in this balancing act and we are all getting it at least a little 'wrong' all of the time. Generally, you can make any relationship closer by investing more time into it. But that means you risk getting stuck in trying to make a relationship fill a spot it won't ever fill. Often, that relationship will be "better" if you can accept less intimacy and hold it less tightly. There are people who can be extremely important to us, even if we can't take too much intimacy. > Several times different people tried to make friends with me, I tried to be open for it, and it didn't work out. Yah! Of course! This is always possible. Sometimes relationships just don't work for either person, despite everyone's best efforts. In those situations, the kindest thing we can do is gently invest less energy into the dynamic. Sometimes you can find an unexpected new relationship that's less than 'friendship' but still valuable and compelling. If you think about it like someone did something wrong, it's becomes more discouraging than it has to be.
- ordu 4y ago
  > Sometimes relationships just don't work for either person, despite everyone's best efforts. This "sometimes" works for me every single time. I'm 40+ and never had any friends. > Sometimes you can find an unexpected new relationship that's less than 'friendship' but still valuable and compelling. I never experienced this as like. All my relationships end when we stop meeting each other at work. > If you think about it like someone did something wrong Oh... I do not think that I did something wrong. I think I didn't do something. Systematically. I'm not sure what exactly. The article gives some hints, but I need to think it through, to be sure. I spend my teens to figure out how to not do something wrong. I'm very good at it, I even do not need to think about it, I just do not do anything wrong. It became ingrained to such an extent, that I cannot even imagine what I can do wrong, because my mind suggests only "right" options. > Generally, you can make any relationship closer by investing more time into it. But that means you risk getting stuck in trying to make a relationship fill a spot it won't ever fill. Your wisdom probably very wise and useful, but only for people who already have some relationships and need to decide what to do with them next. I have no relationships and I do not believe I will, so all your advice is wasted on me. At the same time the article we discuss gives me something to think about. Yeah, I'm vulnerable and I'm not going to risk being hurt by a careless person only to get some intimacy. I'm not going to ask people weird questions, because they can ask them back. I mean, I can deal with it, I can wriggle out of any uncomfortable question, but it is kinda unfair to them if I ask but do not answer.

kelnos 4y ago

> Calling "Growing closer" a skill My take on it that the skill isn't the act of growing closer itself, but the actions you can take to elevate conversation above small talk and see if there could be greater compatibility there for a closer relationship. And that latter part is maybe a big part of the skill: I agree that just having a deep/vulnerable conversation isn't going to give you a close friendship, but I think that's a necessary step on the path. Determining whether or not -- from those deeper conversations -- whether or not a deeper friendship is going to develop is also a skill worth mastering. (Maybe the author did actually mean what you thought, in which case I agree with you... and so I like my explanation better.)

balaji1 4y ago

> work and attention Attention is such a good choice of word. Attention with memory is key. I feel memory/remembering is the work, because we are constantly flooded with new things all day. Otherwise, once I am out of a conversation, I am into another app or meeting. > accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain. Damn that's true. Though I think our instinct is to try to connect on a deeper level, and with just good intentions. We can be good friends with a lot of people. And be close to very few. That's ok, and better to be clear.