7 ms·

It's not like Western society started degenerating ten years ago.

by lzooz 4y ago

stavros 4y ago
Do you mean that sex is a product of a degenerate society? I'm not sure I can read your comment any other way, and it's interesting to see one comment say "it's amazing how quickly we've become accepting" and the reply being "we degenerated long before that".
- lezojeda 4y ago
  >Do you mean that sex is a product of a degenerate society? They never even hinted 'sex'. Probably sex work, from people who in other times had other job opportunities besides selling their body online. >Do you mean that sex is a product of a degenerate society? So, answering your question, widespread sex work, yes.
  - stavros 4y ago
    On the other hand, a society where sex work isn't stigmatized is less degenerate than one who is.
    - recuter 4y ago
      How about one where it is widely promoted?
    - 988747 4y ago
      Imagine government-run employment agency setting you up for a job interview at the brothel. And if you refuse that interview you lose your unemployment benefits, because you turned down perfectly legal job... That's reality for women in Germany, for example.
    - newsclues 4y ago
      Why was sex work stigmatized for so long? Maybe traditions aren't wrong!
    - virtueman 4y ago
      In the context of prostitution, the bed should be seen as a sacrificial stone. People often 'choose' this work - sacrifice themselves - because they can care for aging, ill family in ways that would otherwise not be possible. Sex work irreparably destroys one's ability to desire or enjoy intimacy. A core function of what it means to be human is completely erased. Through first hand experience, I have gone from being completely pro-sex work to now viewing it as an evil industry.
  - zaroth 4y ago
    You make it sound like most of the women making money on the site aren’t pretty thrilled they can print money by posting pictures on the internet? Safe, legal, and easily monetizable sex work is a boon for young pretty women. Attractive men don’t generally have that avenue available to them, for example as a way to pay for college.
    - bradlys 4y ago
      The sex work often is at the cost of other things. We might have something relatively safe and financially good for some women. However - this is taking lots of money from men who are unable to attract women. They’re taking money from men they’d never interact with. I’m not really sure it’s a boon for society. It’s purely to placate lonely men who are unable to get a partner. I don’t know any men who pay for onlyfans content and have a partner. I think widespread sex work is a failure of society and I’m pro-sex work. It usually means you’ve failed men and commoditized sex and relationships.
      - zaroth 4y ago
        Is it really more widespread at this point in history than any other? Or just easier to measure the market size? I wouldn’t lament that sex work being safe and profitable is bad for society. But I also don’t think OnlyFans is significantly inducing demand, and I wouldn’t describe this as “taking” money from lonely men, it seems like a fair economic exchange to me. I don’t have the hard numbers but I think staying single, being alone (and lonely), are huge and growing issues in modern society. The internet providing easy & cheap access to dopamine as a coping mechanism is probably better than increasing alcohol or drug use, but certainly isn’t a “good” thing. All of them of course have the potential for addictive and compulsive use. I don’t see a problem with commoditizing sex when it’s outside the scope of a committed relationship. Not all sex is about meeting an emotional need, and that’s perfectly fine as long as it’s safe and consensual. Young men are certainly being failed in many ways and seem to be quite lost in the culture wars. My unscientific opinion is that this is compounded by the many environmental toxins pushing down T levels, modern K-12 educational pedagogy catering heavily to girls, and societal change around masculinity and the increasing impossibility of celebrating male gender roles.
- yucky 4y ago
  Do you not see a difference between consensual sex, and commoditized sex which primarily preys upon the vulnerable?
  - stavros 4y ago
    I do, but I also think that people should be able to choose sex work without stigma, if that's what they want.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - yucky 4y ago
      Why? The entire industry preys upon the vulnerable. Customers and workers alike, with some exceptions of course.
    - lm28469 4y ago
      You'd need whole lot more prevention and education for that choice to be made. OF is full or barely legal teens who just see the "quick money printing" aspect of it but it obviously have a much broader impact, especially psychologically It's no all black or white but let's not treat OF as the next best thing after running water, I wouldn't be surprised if it was, as many other websites (social medias cue), a net negative when you start looking at the broad/long term impact As always with tech, what was once ok at a small scale doesn't necessarily stays ok when it becomes a world wide "1-click" away phenomenon accessible to virtually anyone over the age of 12 with half a brain
      - stavros 4y ago
        That may be, I admit I've never been on it. It's just a bit of a red flag to me when people stigmatize sex work, because sex workers have a hard enough time as it is.
- fiat_fandango 4y ago
  I'm not religious and I still find the notion that society has just accepted people selling OF like content as degenerate. Far more degenerate than pornography because what they're selling is a parasocial relationship that also keys into the sexual brain bait that pornography does. It's not a stretch to observe society as degenerating when we have continuously normalized blatantly degenerate behavior with clear harm to younger members of society.

It's not like Western society started degenerating ten years ago.

by lzooz 4y ago

It's not like Western society started degenerating ten years ago.

Do you mean that sex is a product of a degenerate society? I'm not sure I can read your comment any other way, and it's interesting to see one comment say "it's amazing how quickly we've become accepting" and the reply being "we degenerated long before that".

lezojeda 4y ago
>Do you mean that sex is a product of a degenerate society? They never even hinted 'sex'. Probably sex work, from people who in other times had other job opportunities besides selling their body online. >Do you mean that sex is a product of a degenerate society? So, answering your question, widespread sex work, yes.
- stavros 4y ago
  On the other hand, a society where sex work isn't stigmatized is less degenerate than one who is.
  - recuter 4y ago
    How about one where it is widely promoted?
  - 988747 4y ago
    Imagine government-run employment agency setting you up for a job interview at the brothel. And if you refuse that interview you lose your unemployment benefits, because you turned down perfectly legal job... That's reality for women in Germany, for example.
  - newsclues 4y ago
    Why was sex work stigmatized for so long? Maybe traditions aren't wrong!
  - virtueman 4y ago
    In the context of prostitution, the bed should be seen as a sacrificial stone. People often 'choose' this work - sacrifice themselves - because they can care for aging, ill family in ways that would otherwise not be possible. Sex work irreparably destroys one's ability to desire or enjoy intimacy. A core function of what it means to be human is completely erased. Through first hand experience, I have gone from being completely pro-sex work to now viewing it as an evil industry.
- zaroth 4y ago
  You make it sound like most of the women making money on the site aren’t pretty thrilled they can print money by posting pictures on the internet? Safe, legal, and easily monetizable sex work is a boon for young pretty women. Attractive men don’t generally have that avenue available to them, for example as a way to pay for college.
  - bradlys 4y ago
    The sex work often is at the cost of other things. We might have something relatively safe and financially good for some women. However - this is taking lots of money from men who are unable to attract women. They’re taking money from men they’d never interact with. I’m not really sure it’s a boon for society. It’s purely to placate lonely men who are unable to get a partner. I don’t know any men who pay for onlyfans content and have a partner. I think widespread sex work is a failure of society and I’m pro-sex work. It usually means you’ve failed men and commoditized sex and relationships.
    - zaroth 4y ago
      Is it really more widespread at this point in history than any other? Or just easier to measure the market size? I wouldn’t lament that sex work being safe and profitable is bad for society. But I also don’t think OnlyFans is significantly inducing demand, and I wouldn’t describe this as “taking” money from lonely men, it seems like a fair economic exchange to me. I don’t have the hard numbers but I think staying single, being alone (and lonely), are huge and growing issues in modern society. The internet providing easy & cheap access to dopamine as a coping mechanism is probably better than increasing alcohol or drug use, but certainly isn’t a “good” thing. All of them of course have the potential for addictive and compulsive use. I don’t see a problem with commoditizing sex when it’s outside the scope of a committed relationship. Not all sex is about meeting an emotional need, and that’s perfectly fine as long as it’s safe and consensual. Young men are certainly being failed in many ways and seem to be quite lost in the culture wars. My unscientific opinion is that this is compounded by the many environmental toxins pushing down T levels, modern K-12 educational pedagogy catering heavily to girls, and societal change around masculinity and the increasing impossibility of celebrating male gender roles.
yucky 4y ago
Do you not see a difference between consensual sex, and commoditized sex which primarily preys upon the vulnerable?
- stavros 4y ago
  I do, but I also think that people should be able to choose sex work without stigma, if that's what they want.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - yucky 4y ago
    Why? The entire industry preys upon the vulnerable. Customers and workers alike, with some exceptions of course.
  - lm28469 4y ago
    You'd need whole lot more prevention and education for that choice to be made. OF is full or barely legal teens who just see the "quick money printing" aspect of it but it obviously have a much broader impact, especially psychologically It's no all black or white but let's not treat OF as the next best thing after running water, I wouldn't be surprised if it was, as many other websites (social medias cue), a net negative when you start looking at the broad/long term impact As always with tech, what was once ok at a small scale doesn't necessarily stays ok when it becomes a world wide "1-click" away phenomenon accessible to virtually anyone over the age of 12 with half a brain
    - stavros 4y ago
      That may be, I admit I've never been on it. It's just a bit of a red flag to me when people stigmatize sex work, because sex workers have a hard enough time as it is.
fiat_fandango 4y ago
I'm not religious and I still find the notion that society has just accepted people selling OF like content as degenerate. Far more degenerate than pornography because what they're selling is a parasocial relationship that also keys into the sexual brain bait that pornography does. It's not a stretch to observe society as degenerating when we have continuously normalized blatantly degenerate behavior with clear harm to younger members of society.