6 ms·

This is the kind of thing that can break entire economies: forcing you to hire people you don't want to hire, people who may be entirely unoptimal but you have

This is the kind of thing that can break entire economies: forcing you to hire people you don't want to hire, people who may be entirely unoptimal but you have to hire them anyway due to a quota. Of course the consequences will be too gradual to see at first. People will only implement this stuff slowly, fines will probably not appear for a decade and by the time these changes are actually in effect nobody will know why the economy runs X% worse than before. It will be as if it has always been slightly bad and economists will ponder for years and years how to improve the ailing continent.

varispeed 4y ago
- notlukesky 4y ago
  Maybe they will allow boards to just allow self-identified genders. And on that note what happens with non-binary and gender fluid people? Will they be counted as well?
- ogig 4y ago
  This is a legit question. I can totally see some men turning legally women only for a spot in the board. Possible in Spain, and considering how good with are at bending rules this seems low hanging fruit for unscrupulous people. I guess the only thing preventing this could be the public backslash towards the company if their board women are regular dudes in suits.
  - lzooz 4y ago
    No more unscrupulous than telling you that you can't have a job because you are a man. Socialist governments in Spain have been introducing unconstitutional laws that discriminate depending on your gender (longer prison sentences if you are a man for example). Letting you change your gender whenever you want is going to finally bring some equality back.
- pavlov 4y ago
  You simply obey the law and respect the person’s legal gender. Do you really think a 50-year-old Italian businessman is going to change their legal gender to be on more corporate boards? It’s strange how people pretend that accommodations for trans people are some kind of huge complication that breaks society when they only affect a small minority which has been treated horribly until now.
  - varispeed 4y ago
    > Do you really think a 50-year-old Italian businessman is going to change their legal gender to be on more corporate boards? Humans are humans. If there are men pretending to be gay to score a part in an adult movie, can't see why there wouldn't be men or women trying to get placement at the board using quota imbalance to their advantage. Law of unintended consequences and all that. > It’s strange how people pretend that accommodations for trans people are some kind of huge complication that breaks society when they only affect a small minority which has been treated horribly until now. I didn't say that it is a huge complication. I am looking at this from a programmer's point of view, how such proposal could be exploited. Of course I agree that people are being treated unfairly by the society and these wrongs should be corrected. If I offended someone I apologise, this wasn't my intention.
    - pavlov 4y ago
      “… men pretending to be gay to score a part in an adult movie” — these are actors. They’re pretending by definition! The casting director for an adult movie (gay or straight) doesn’t care whether an actor is actually physically attracted to the other actors. (Nobody quizzes the 20-something women whether they’re really attracted to middle-aged men with a mustache and a German accent.) Anyway, the law of unintended consequences surely applies to the hypothetical businessman who changes his legal gender to be on a corporate board. The ramifications can be surprising in healthcare, for example.
    - michaelt 4y ago
      > can't see why there wouldn't be men or women trying to get placement at the board using quota imbalance to their advantage. To me personally, this doesn't seem very likely. Some political parties in my country have a policy called 'all women shortlists' saying when an MP with a safe seat retires, their replacement must be a woman. Personally I would argue that it isn't a good policy - but it hasn't lead to anyone legally changing their gender.
Retric 4y ago
It’s also the kind of thing that quietly improves economic efficiency by X% per year by expanding the workforce. It unlikely for the most capable people to all come from a tiny percentage of the population rather than some other suboptimal selection criteria rejecting the majority of the most capable people. People notice the unusually suboptimal but miss more subtle effects.
- mcv 4y ago
  Exactly. The goal is to broaden the hiring pool. Some companies are limiting their hiring pool to people close to the people already on board, their old-boys network, or to people who look like they'd fit in. There's no reason at all to assume women would be less suitable for these jobs than men. And many companies have shown that a more diverse board is just as effective, if not more so. Limiting their hiring to a smaller pool means companies are holding themselves back.
  - nickpp 4y ago
    > The goal is to broaden the hiring pool. If that was the goal, how about creating a more startup-friendly climate? Stop treating business like the enemy, stop burdening them with red tape and onerous regulation and you'll have more employers. The competition between them will ultimately offer more hiring opportunities, regardless of gender or race.
  - Nathanba 4y ago
    > Exactly. The goal is to broaden the hiring pool. Some companies are limiting their hiring pool to people close to the people already on board, their old-boys network, or to people who look like they'd fit in. what a weird rationalization. So these companies purposefully hire someone they deem better for whatever reason and the EU decides for them that they are wrong. This has to go badly, the EU via a continent-wide policy does not in fact know better than the individual entrepreneur. To deny this is a wild theory to say the least. Also the hiring pool right now was: Everyone. Now the new mandated policy is actually limiting the pool in specific circumstances depending on who already works there. Weird how casually people choose to distort truth.
IanCal 4y ago
> forcing you to hire people you don't want to hire How does this law do that? You can keep 100% one gender if for some weird reason that's who is best. > Companies with a lower share will be required to make appointments on the basis of a comparative analysis of the qualification of candidates by applying clear, gender-neutral and unambiguous criteria and to ensure that applicants are assessed objectively based on their individual merits, irrespective of gender.
- pannSun 4y ago
  I.e. put themselves in massive legal peril.

varispeed 4y ago

notlukesky 4y ago
Maybe they will allow boards to just allow self-identified genders. And on that note what happens with non-binary and gender fluid people? Will they be counted as well?
ogig 4y ago
This is a legit question. I can totally see some men turning legally women only for a spot in the board. Possible in Spain, and considering how good with are at bending rules this seems low hanging fruit for unscrupulous people. I guess the only thing preventing this could be the public backslash towards the company if their board women are regular dudes in suits.
- lzooz 4y ago
  No more unscrupulous than telling you that you can't have a job because you are a man. Socialist governments in Spain have been introducing unconstitutional laws that discriminate depending on your gender (longer prison sentences if you are a man for example). Letting you change your gender whenever you want is going to finally bring some equality back.
pavlov 4y ago
You simply obey the law and respect the person’s legal gender. Do you really think a 50-year-old Italian businessman is going to change their legal gender to be on more corporate boards? It’s strange how people pretend that accommodations for trans people are some kind of huge complication that breaks society when they only affect a small minority which has been treated horribly until now.
- varispeed 4y ago
  > Do you really think a 50-year-old Italian businessman is going to change their legal gender to be on more corporate boards? Humans are humans. If there are men pretending to be gay to score a part in an adult movie, can't see why there wouldn't be men or women trying to get placement at the board using quota imbalance to their advantage. Law of unintended consequences and all that. > It’s strange how people pretend that accommodations for trans people are some kind of huge complication that breaks society when they only affect a small minority which has been treated horribly until now. I didn't say that it is a huge complication. I am looking at this from a programmer's point of view, how such proposal could be exploited. Of course I agree that people are being treated unfairly by the society and these wrongs should be corrected. If I offended someone I apologise, this wasn't my intention.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    “… men pretending to be gay to score a part in an adult movie” — these are actors. They’re pretending by definition! The casting director for an adult movie (gay or straight) doesn’t care whether an actor is actually physically attracted to the other actors. (Nobody quizzes the 20-something women whether they’re really attracted to middle-aged men with a mustache and a German accent.) Anyway, the law of unintended consequences surely applies to the hypothetical businessman who changes his legal gender to be on a corporate board. The ramifications can be surprising in healthcare, for example.
  - michaelt 4y ago
    > can't see why there wouldn't be men or women trying to get placement at the board using quota imbalance to their advantage. To me personally, this doesn't seem very likely. Some political parties in my country have a policy called 'all women shortlists' saying when an MP with a safe seat retires, their replacement must be a woman. Personally I would argue that it isn't a good policy - but it hasn't lead to anyone legally changing their gender.

Retric 4y ago

It’s also the kind of thing that quietly improves economic efficiency by X% per year by expanding the workforce. It unlikely for the most capable people to all come from a tiny percentage of the population rather than some other suboptimal selection criteria rejecting the majority of the most capable people. People notice the unusually suboptimal but miss more subtle effects.

mcv 4y ago
Exactly. The goal is to broaden the hiring pool. Some companies are limiting their hiring pool to people close to the people already on board, their old-boys network, or to people who look like they'd fit in. There's no reason at all to assume women would be less suitable for these jobs than men. And many companies have shown that a more diverse board is just as effective, if not more so. Limiting their hiring to a smaller pool means companies are holding themselves back.
- nickpp 4y ago
  > The goal is to broaden the hiring pool. If that was the goal, how about creating a more startup-friendly climate? Stop treating business like the enemy, stop burdening them with red tape and onerous regulation and you'll have more employers. The competition between them will ultimately offer more hiring opportunities, regardless of gender or race.
- Nathanba 4y ago
  > Exactly. The goal is to broaden the hiring pool. Some companies are limiting their hiring pool to people close to the people already on board, their old-boys network, or to people who look like they'd fit in. what a weird rationalization. So these companies purposefully hire someone they deem better for whatever reason and the EU decides for them that they are wrong. This has to go badly, the EU via a continent-wide policy does not in fact know better than the individual entrepreneur. To deny this is a wild theory to say the least. Also the hiring pool right now was: Everyone. Now the new mandated policy is actually limiting the pool in specific circumstances depending on who already works there. Weird how casually people choose to distort truth.

IanCal 4y ago

> forcing you to hire people you don't want to hire How does this law do that? You can keep 100% one gender if for some weird reason that's who is best. > Companies with a lower share will be required to make appointments on the basis of a comparative analysis of the qualification of candidates by applying clear, gender-neutral and unambiguous criteria and to ensure that applicants are assessed objectively based on their individual merits, irrespective of gender.

pannSun 4y ago
I.e. put themselves in massive legal peril.