4 ms·

Yeah, this specific bio-material probably doesn't make sense for moisture and dirt. However, the bio-plastics made from shellfish leftovers (think: crab, lobst

by RajT88 4y ago

Yeah, this specific bio-material probably doesn't make sense for moisture and dirt. However, the bio-plastics made from shellfish leftovers (think: crab, lobster, shrimp) would be appropriate for this. The problem with petroleum based products (Styrofoam, plastics) is that they are crazy cheap due to our oil based economy. At some point the economics of that industry will change, and with it the prevailing winds on using plastics as building materials. I would welcome more products being made as sturdy as they used to be. Take for example, pooper scoopers. It's actually quite difficult to buy a scissor-style one made of any kind of metal (there's one which is 80ish USD and made of steel - sort of a vanity product). They're all plastic. They all break, some sooner than others. The one I picked up from my parents' house recently was used from about 1990 to 2003 (and left outdoors since), and performs better than any of the plastic ones we used. It's wood and aluminum, and probably was no more expensive than the plastic ones on offer today. We broke a 25 dollar scooper within a month, and the scooper we inherited will likely outlive yet another dog.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
> At some point the economics of that industry will change, and with it the prevailing winds on using plastics as building materials. KSA can pump oil at current rates for 40 years at $20 per barrel. That'll definitely be enough for global plastic consumption. Economics itself isn't going to phase out plastics in my lifetime.
- labster 4y ago
  If oil demand decreases enough, it should get more expensive. It seems counterintuitive, but so much of the supply chain depends on moving large amounts of oil, refineries selling different grades of molecules to different customers, and oil companies not having to pay to shut down old wells. Heh, just kidding on the last one, oil firms never pay to shut down wells, they just sell to small firms which can go bankrupt instead. But the big complicated supply chain for petrochemicals can break at lower scale. Compare how freaked out the markets have gotten at Meta and Netflix for losing users while still being profitable, and you can see how financing could dry up before the wells do. I doubt it’s enough to phase out plastics, but it might make alternatives more economically viable.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    None of this applies to KSA's oil - which is more than enough oil to meet plastic consumption for 100 years. At $20 per barrel - the economics alone will be tough to beat with some other material.
    - labster 4y ago
      Wow, I didn’t know that refining, shipping, and access to global capital didn’t apply to KSA. Such a magical country. They’re going to need that magic when the primary export collapses — or if it doesn’t, wet bulb temperatures in the Gulf make it literally unlivable. The $20 a barrel will be even harder to sustain in a protracted civil war, which is where they are headed if they don’t diversify enough.
      - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
        > Wow, I didn’t know that refining, shipping, and access to global capital didn’t apply to KSA. Such a magical country. KSA refines all its own oil. KSA doesn't need capital. It's a money printing machine - even at $30 per barrel. Shipping will have some impact. ~40% of global shipping cargo is fossil fuels. However, my guess is, fossil fuel shipping would get even cheaper, not more expensive.
tylergetsay 4y ago
From my understanding the shellfish bioplastic will trigger allergies so its not suitable for food wraps but can be okay things like straws
- RajT88 4y ago
  Huh. I don't see how those two things can both be true but OK. Anyways. I am sure the boffins are working on the shellfish allergy angle.
  - rocqua 4y ago
    Food wraps make the food completely unedible, whilst an allergic person could avoid the straw but still consume the drink?? Best argument I could come up with.
- friendlyHornet 4y ago
  Thanks for mentioning this; I have shellfish allergies and this was my first thought when I saw the parent comment mention shellfish-based wrapping
Grimburger 4y ago
> shellfish leftovers There's nowhere near enough of that and it's a natural resource we are already plundering at brutal levels.
- TylerE 4y ago
  It’s not like if throw the shell back in it’s gonna grow a new crab.
  - jakewins 4y ago
    Additional sources of revenue for fisheries will increase the scope of which stocks are financially viable to destroy. If world fisheries had shown that it was possible to control extraction such that we did not destroy stocks, then this would be a great way to meet a significant (~10%, it seems?) portion of world packaging plastics needs. However, it seems pretty clear that the fishing industry as a whole has any interest in ensuring sustainable production.
  - yourapostasy 4y ago
    That's not sufficient macroeconomic justification to push the shellfish remains biofilm forward. See Cobra Effect [1]. This is reflexivity in action [2]. In the first year you start manufacturing this biofilm, your sentiment is true, it is using waste stream. In the Nth year, fisheries are collapsing shrimp stocks, flooding markets with shrimp to extract what used to be a waste stream to eke out ever decreasing margins in a vicious cycle. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexivity_(social_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexivity_(social_theory)
    - shalmanese 4y ago
      Or you just consume the entirety of the waste stream and then stop because it's a low value marginal add on product that doesn't drive an industry. It's not like the demand for cow manure is driving us to create brand new herds simply to output more manure.

by RajT88 4y ago

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

> At some point the economics of that industry will change, and with it the prevailing winds on using plastics as building materials. KSA can pump oil at current rates for 40 years at $20 per barrel. That'll definitely be enough for global plastic consumption. Economics itself isn't going to phase out plastics in my lifetime.

labster 4y ago
If oil demand decreases enough, it should get more expensive. It seems counterintuitive, but so much of the supply chain depends on moving large amounts of oil, refineries selling different grades of molecules to different customers, and oil companies not having to pay to shut down old wells. Heh, just kidding on the last one, oil firms never pay to shut down wells, they just sell to small firms which can go bankrupt instead. But the big complicated supply chain for petrochemicals can break at lower scale. Compare how freaked out the markets have gotten at Meta and Netflix for losing users while still being profitable, and you can see how financing could dry up before the wells do. I doubt it’s enough to phase out plastics, but it might make alternatives more economically viable.
- onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
  None of this applies to KSA's oil - which is more than enough oil to meet plastic consumption for 100 years. At $20 per barrel - the economics alone will be tough to beat with some other material.
  - labster 4y ago
    Wow, I didn’t know that refining, shipping, and access to global capital didn’t apply to KSA. Such a magical country. They’re going to need that magic when the primary export collapses — or if it doesn’t, wet bulb temperatures in the Gulf make it literally unlivable. The $20 a barrel will be even harder to sustain in a protracted civil war, which is where they are headed if they don’t diversify enough.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      > Wow, I didn’t know that refining, shipping, and access to global capital didn’t apply to KSA. Such a magical country. KSA refines all its own oil. KSA doesn't need capital. It's a money printing machine - even at $30 per barrel. Shipping will have some impact. ~40% of global shipping cargo is fossil fuels. However, my guess is, fossil fuel shipping would get even cheaper, not more expensive.

tylergetsay 4y ago

From my understanding the shellfish bioplastic will trigger allergies so its not suitable for food wraps but can be okay things like straws

RajT88 4y ago
Huh. I don't see how those two things can both be true but OK. Anyways. I am sure the boffins are working on the shellfish allergy angle.
- rocqua 4y ago
  Food wraps make the food completely unedible, whilst an allergic person could avoid the straw but still consume the drink?? Best argument I could come up with.
friendlyHornet 4y ago
Thanks for mentioning this; I have shellfish allergies and this was my first thought when I saw the parent comment mention shellfish-based wrapping

Grimburger 4y ago

> shellfish leftovers There's nowhere near enough of that and it's a natural resource we are already plundering at brutal levels.

TylerE 4y ago
It’s not like if throw the shell back in it’s gonna grow a new crab.
- jakewins 4y ago
  Additional sources of revenue for fisheries will increase the scope of which stocks are financially viable to destroy. If world fisheries had shown that it was possible to control extraction such that we did not destroy stocks, then this would be a great way to meet a significant (~10%, it seems?) portion of world packaging plastics needs. However, it seems pretty clear that the fishing industry as a whole has any interest in ensuring sustainable production.
- yourapostasy 4y ago
  That's not sufficient macroeconomic justification to push the shellfish remains biofilm forward. See Cobra Effect [1]. This is reflexivity in action [2]. In the first year you start manufacturing this biofilm, your sentiment is true, it is using waste stream. In the Nth year, fisheries are collapsing shrimp stocks, flooding markets with shrimp to extract what used to be a waste stream to eke out ever decreasing margins in a vicious cycle. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexivity_(social_theory) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexivity_(social_theory)
  - shalmanese 4y ago
    Or you just consume the entirety of the waste stream and then stop because it's a low value marginal add on product that doesn't drive an industry. It's not like the demand for cow manure is driving us to create brand new herds simply to output more manure.