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> small group of people decided to use it while they did a bunch of nasty stuff. Try again. A genocidal regime that conquered western europe by force, almost s

by beachy 4y ago

> small group of people decided to use it while they did a bunch of nasty stuff. Try again. A genocidal regime that conquered western europe by force, almost succeeded in overthrowing world democracy and caused the deaths of tens of millions.

bowsamic 4y ago
[flagged]
- Barrin92 4y ago
  probably in school? At the height of its expansion The Nazi regime (and allies) occupied not just most of Western Europe, but most of Europe period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-occupied_Europe#/media/File:Europe_under_Nazi_domination.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-occupied_Europe#/media/...
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    Occupied is not the same as conquered, and they had a weak grasp of those places, with life going on as normal in much of France. Even if they had conquered those places, how is does this mean the world was on the brink of a collapse of democracy? EDIT: why the downvotes?
    - Barrin92 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - bowsamic 4y ago
        Of course that happened in some places but in much of France the occupation was extremely light handed to the point where peoples lives were barely affected. It wasn’t total domination. You are making stuff up. There is more to France than the north
      - spoils19 4y ago
        As mentioned, please make sure you follow the HN commenting guidelines. The GP asked a question in good faith to spur curious discussion.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  If anything, the aftermath of WWII is what brought us "world democracy" (as far as that's even a thing)
- tgv 4y ago
  The Netherlands, Belgium, France (effectively), Norway, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Italy (towards the end), Poland, Czechoslovakia. Which part of Western Europe is missing? The British isles? > nor did it almost succeed in “overthrowing world democracy” I'm amazed at your easy dismissal of this. Or is your trite point that hardly was any democracy to begin with?
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    Do you have anything at all to justify your last paragraph? I’d love you to point to a WW2 historian who corroborates your claim. In school in the UK we were taught the opposite
gautamdivgi 4y ago
Isn't that a lot of European civilization going west and east? We don't taint all of Europe although they were responsible for some pretty bad things. I mean the Belgians did horrible things in the Congo. Churchill starved West Bengal causing a famine that killed 4m people. From a non-European point of view Hitler was bad but so were other European colonizers as well.
ivanhoe 4y ago
> and caused the deaths of tens of millions 40-50 million in the war itself to be precise, but that doesn't account for all the millions of people who died in years directly after the war as a consequence of hunger, diseases, revenges, crime, political fights and persecution caused by the new division of powers... especially in Eastern Europe and Germany itself.
t-3 4y ago
The Nazi party only had ~10% of the German population as it's membership at it's peak and gained power through nondemocratic means. They did a lot of nasty things, including slavery, genocide, and colonial oppression, as I mentioned earlier. Which part do you disagree with?
- tgv 4y ago
  Approximately 14 million German soldiers served in WW2. And many non-party members co-opted or looked the other way. They may not have been formally registered as members of the NSDAP, but they're generally counted with the bad guys.
- benj111 4y ago
  They gained power through democratic means, the emergency powers that made Hitler a dictator were in the constitution. They only ran out in 1939. Yes there are instances where it wasn't above board but by and large Hitler gained his power democratically and/or within the constitution. So I would say Hitler and Germany is a lesson in how not to set up a democracy. It basically enabled his rise to power.
  - nequo 4y ago
    > So I would say Hitler and Germany is a lesson in how not to set up a democracy. It basically enabled his rise to power. And indeed, constitutions and electoral systems took these lessons into account afterwards. Nowadays it is hard to win an election with 1/3 of the vote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_e...
- machina_ex_deus 4y ago
  Hitler managed to get a 66% supermajority to change the constitution. The enabling act had 444/647 vote. It's actually much, much worse than people realize. They got 68% voting in favor of becoming dictatorship. Wikipedia enabling act. The overcame supermajority obstacles. Pretending they didn't represent the majority is detached from history. Nazism resonated deeply in Germany. He truly got most Germans willing to follow him enthusiastically.
meindnoch 4y ago
benj111 4y ago
I don't think they're minimizing what the Nazis did, just pointing out that the symbol has been completely highjacked by one narrow use of the symbol.
emmelaich 4y ago
I think you mean "many democracies in the world" rather than "world democracy" -- which has quite a distinct meaning.
- beachy 4y ago
  Indeed, thank you.

by beachy 4y ago

bowsamic 4y ago

[flagged]

Barrin92 4y ago
probably in school? At the height of its expansion The Nazi regime (and allies) occupied not just most of Western Europe, but most of Europe period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-occupied_Europe#/media/File:Europe_under_Nazi_domination.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-occupied_Europe#/media/...
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Occupied is not the same as conquered, and they had a weak grasp of those places, with life going on as normal in much of France. Even if they had conquered those places, how is does this mean the world was on the brink of a collapse of democracy? EDIT: why the downvotes?
  - Barrin92 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      Of course that happened in some places but in much of France the occupation was extremely light handed to the point where peoples lives were barely affected. It wasn’t total domination. You are making stuff up. There is more to France than the north
    - spoils19 4y ago
      As mentioned, please make sure you follow the HN commenting guidelines. The GP asked a question in good faith to spur curious discussion.
wongarsu 4y ago
If anything, the aftermath of WWII is what brought us "world democracy" (as far as that's even a thing)
tgv 4y ago
The Netherlands, Belgium, France (effectively), Norway, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Italy (towards the end), Poland, Czechoslovakia. Which part of Western Europe is missing? The British isles? > nor did it almost succeed in “overthrowing world democracy” I'm amazed at your easy dismissal of this. Or is your trite point that hardly was any democracy to begin with?
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Do you have anything at all to justify your last paragraph? I’d love you to point to a WW2 historian who corroborates your claim. In school in the UK we were taught the opposite

gautamdivgi 4y ago

Isn't that a lot of European civilization going west and east? We don't taint all of Europe although they were responsible for some pretty bad things. I mean the Belgians did horrible things in the Congo. Churchill starved West Bengal causing a famine that killed 4m people. From a non-European point of view Hitler was bad but so were other European colonizers as well.

ivanhoe 4y ago

> and caused the deaths of tens of millions 40-50 million in the war itself to be precise, but that doesn't account for all the millions of people who died in years directly after the war as a consequence of hunger, diseases, revenges, crime, political fights and persecution caused by the new division of powers... especially in Eastern Europe and Germany itself.

t-3 4y ago

The Nazi party only had ~10% of the German population as it's membership at it's peak and gained power through nondemocratic means. They did a lot of nasty things, including slavery, genocide, and colonial oppression, as I mentioned earlier. Which part do you disagree with?

tgv 4y ago
Approximately 14 million German soldiers served in WW2. And many non-party members co-opted or looked the other way. They may not have been formally registered as members of the NSDAP, but they're generally counted with the bad guys.
benj111 4y ago
They gained power through democratic means, the emergency powers that made Hitler a dictator were in the constitution. They only ran out in 1939. Yes there are instances where it wasn't above board but by and large Hitler gained his power democratically and/or within the constitution. So I would say Hitler and Germany is a lesson in how not to set up a democracy. It basically enabled his rise to power.
- nequo 4y ago
  > So I would say Hitler and Germany is a lesson in how not to set up a democracy. It basically enabled his rise to power. And indeed, constitutions and electoral systems took these lessons into account afterwards. Nowadays it is hard to win an election with 1/3 of the vote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1932_German_federal_e...
machina_ex_deus 4y ago
Hitler managed to get a 66% supermajority to change the constitution. The enabling act had 444/647 vote. It's actually much, much worse than people realize. They got 68% voting in favor of becoming dictatorship. Wikipedia enabling act. The overcame supermajority obstacles. Pretending they didn't represent the majority is detached from history. Nazism resonated deeply in Germany. He truly got most Germans willing to follow him enthusiastically.

meindnoch 4y ago

benj111 4y ago

I don't think they're minimizing what the Nazis did, just pointing out that the symbol has been completely highjacked by one narrow use of the symbol.

emmelaich 4y ago

I think you mean "many democracies in the world" rather than "world democracy" -- which has quite a distinct meaning.

beachy 4y ago
Indeed, thank you.