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Workers at Amazon’s largest air hub in the world push to form a union

29 points by perihelions 4y ago

sokoloff 4y ago
If most workers there are are paid less than $20/hr now and demanding $30/hr as a starting wage, why wouldn’t Amazon just move much of this operation to other FCs, including Wilmington Air Park, only 50 miles to the north-east? At some point, Amazon customers are only willing to pay so much. Unless Amazon gets far more productivity per person-hour than its competitors, it can’t afford to pay wildly more than its competitors are paying.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  Hopefully $30 is more of an opening demand / selling point for recruiting members. Otherwise yeah, pricing themselves out of the market...
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  You keep attempting to unionize everywhere Amazon attempts to go. No great loss if consumers don’t receive consumer excess via Amazon purchases. And as long as the right to organize is protected by the federal government, there’s no reason to not continue to attempt to exercise those rights in a labor supply constrained macro.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Sure, those rights should be protected, and unions can continue to be organized, but it seems like a lot of people end up losing out here as union organizers slowly chase Amazon FCs around the US.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Amazon’s innovation was abusing its FC and delivery network workers with abhorrent work conditions. Short term, some economic rearrangement will occur, long term hopefully these conditions improve with union representation. It’s the only way for these workers to improve these working conditions for themselves. If Amazon service declines, or parts of the business aren’t sustainable, as I mentioned, no great loss. People having jobs that allow them to live with some dignity and control over their work environment is superior to the American consumer getting more consumer goods shoveled into their living room at the lowest price possible. There will always be non-Amazon jobs, and if Amazon is the only employer in town, that’s a policy failure to be patched.
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        For the average person working at any job, they have some reason to think that’s their best option. The risk of taking away their best option in hopes that someone else in another town will get a better option will appeal to some, but far from all, as they cast their organizing ballot.
- COGlory 4y ago
  Is Amazon not wildly profitable? I don't see why they can't pay "wildly more".
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Amazon retail (the operation in question) is not wildly profitable.
    - feet 4y ago
      Maybe it shouldn't exist?
      - djbebs 4y ago
        If they would prefer to be unemployed, they can do it regardless of whether amazon retail exists or not
        feet 4y ago
        If they would prefer to be homeless and hungry they're free to not work for the only employer in town who happens to be incredibly abusive
- InTheArena 4y ago
  Amazon has built this hub over decades. Moving it would be pretty much impossible.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    For $10+/hr for every employee working there, I’ll bet it’s not only possible but economically viable.
    - InTheArena 4y ago
      I would say that the reality is somewhat looser. Their investment in easily in the 100s of billions. At that price, replacing workers should a strike be called is pretty feasible. Unions can, and often do, overplay their hands when negotiating. Adversarial systems, and competitive unions force unions to demand best of industry contracts at every corporation they go to. To draw a football analogy, every unions wants a Christian Kirk contract, and every contract after that must be a Christian Kirk^2 contract.
    - dopidopHN 4y ago
      I have a feeling that it might be a bit more complicated than it looks
jamestnz 4y ago
Are labour unions generally done one-off like this in the US? I keep reading stories where individual branches/locations make efforts to unionise, which the company fights off whack-a-mole style. In my country the unions are fairly well-established and tend to sit across an entire sector, covering all businesses operating in it (workers individually choose whether or not to join, but the company isn't allowed to discriminate either way). Like there will be a Nurses union, a Teachers union, a Public Sector union, a Warehousing and Logistics union, a Port & Dockworkers union, a Retail Workers union... the list goes on. One US example I've heard of like this is in trucking (Teamsters union?), but I know little about the history of US labour relations generally. Could there be an Amazon Workers union that covers an entire state? Employers of a certain size here are also obliged to provide registered unions with access to business premises, ability to hold certain (non-mandatory) union meetings during work hours, etc. Some industries have upwards of 20-30% of all employees joined to the union, a few even higher.
- InTheArena 4y ago
  Unions in the United States are adversarial and corporate. They are institutions and powers in and off themselves, which makes them far different from their generally much less militant European cousins. The adversarial part means much more willingness to engaged in scorched earth outcomes (by both companies and unions). Unions have taken over corporations (United Airlines for example), destroyed corporations (Eastern / National). Unions compete with each other as well.
  - djbebs 4y ago
    That's the same as in europe, except perhaps that in europe often specific unions are associated with specific political parties and act in conjunction.
    - snowpid 4y ago
      No, in Europe, every country is very different on that topic. Just compare Switzerland vs. France.
InTheArena 4y ago
Can we stop pretending that a small subset of workers represent all workers? Union votes usually fail, which indicate that (charitably) they are often not representing a majority or a plurality of folks.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dopidopHN 4y ago
  Can you specify what country you have in mind and the laws around union elections? I think that would help because the more I read about union laws in diverse place, the more I realize that it's not a even field. A set of questions that comes to mind in regards to union legal framework: is a union mandatory? if yes, starting what company size? If not, what can trigger a election? What is the status of the employee running in a union? Is there legal recourse in the event that some of those employee are terminated without cause?
everforward 4y ago
Those requests are really high for that area. The hub is in Boone County where the median individual income is $38k. $30/hr would be almost double that for a full-time worker, and roughly on par with a nurse or mid-level SWE living in Cincinnati (the nearest major city). That's before even talking about 22 days off per year. I don't think they're going to get those demands, but maybe they're starting high so they have some room to negotiate.

29 points by perihelions 4y ago

If most workers there are are paid less than $20/hr now and demanding $30/hr as a starting wage, why wouldn’t Amazon just move much of this operation to other FCs, including Wilmington Air Park, only 50 miles to the north-east? At some point, Amazon customers are only willing to pay so much. Unless Amazon gets far more productivity per person-hour than its competitors, it can’t afford to pay wildly more than its competitors are paying.

LatteLazy 4y ago
Hopefully $30 is more of an opening demand / selling point for recruiting members. Otherwise yeah, pricing themselves out of the market...
toomuchtodo 4y ago
You keep attempting to unionize everywhere Amazon attempts to go. No great loss if consumers don’t receive consumer excess via Amazon purchases. And as long as the right to organize is protected by the federal government, there’s no reason to not continue to attempt to exercise those rights in a labor supply constrained macro.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Sure, those rights should be protected, and unions can continue to be organized, but it seems like a lot of people end up losing out here as union organizers slowly chase Amazon FCs around the US.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Amazon’s innovation was abusing its FC and delivery network workers with abhorrent work conditions. Short term, some economic rearrangement will occur, long term hopefully these conditions improve with union representation. It’s the only way for these workers to improve these working conditions for themselves. If Amazon service declines, or parts of the business aren’t sustainable, as I mentioned, no great loss. People having jobs that allow them to live with some dignity and control over their work environment is superior to the American consumer getting more consumer goods shoveled into their living room at the lowest price possible. There will always be non-Amazon jobs, and if Amazon is the only employer in town, that’s a policy failure to be patched.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      For the average person working at any job, they have some reason to think that’s their best option. The risk of taking away their best option in hopes that someone else in another town will get a better option will appeal to some, but far from all, as they cast their organizing ballot.
COGlory 4y ago
Is Amazon not wildly profitable? I don't see why they can't pay "wildly more".
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Amazon retail (the operation in question) is not wildly profitable.
  - feet 4y ago
    Maybe it shouldn't exist?
    - djbebs 4y ago
      If they would prefer to be unemployed, they can do it regardless of whether amazon retail exists or not
      - feet 4y ago
        If they would prefer to be homeless and hungry they're free to not work for the only employer in town who happens to be incredibly abusive
InTheArena 4y ago
Amazon has built this hub over decades. Moving it would be pretty much impossible.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  For $10+/hr for every employee working there, I’ll bet it’s not only possible but economically viable.
  - InTheArena 4y ago
    I would say that the reality is somewhat looser. Their investment in easily in the 100s of billions. At that price, replacing workers should a strike be called is pretty feasible. Unions can, and often do, overplay their hands when negotiating. Adversarial systems, and competitive unions force unions to demand best of industry contracts at every corporation they go to. To draw a football analogy, every unions wants a Christian Kirk contract, and every contract after that must be a Christian Kirk^2 contract.
  - dopidopHN 4y ago
    I have a feeling that it might be a bit more complicated than it looks

jamestnz 4y ago

Are labour unions generally done one-off like this in the US? I keep reading stories where individual branches/locations make efforts to unionise, which the company fights off whack-a-mole style. In my country the unions are fairly well-established and tend to sit across an entire sector, covering all businesses operating in it (workers individually choose whether or not to join, but the company isn't allowed to discriminate either way). Like there will be a Nurses union, a Teachers union, a Public Sector union, a Warehousing and Logistics union, a Port & Dockworkers union, a Retail Workers union... the list goes on. One US example I've heard of like this is in trucking (Teamsters union?), but I know little about the history of US labour relations generally. Could there be an Amazon Workers union that covers an entire state? Employers of a certain size here are also obliged to provide registered unions with access to business premises, ability to hold certain (non-mandatory) union meetings during work hours, etc. Some industries have upwards of 20-30% of all employees joined to the union, a few even higher.

InTheArena 4y ago
Unions in the United States are adversarial and corporate. They are institutions and powers in and off themselves, which makes them far different from their generally much less militant European cousins. The adversarial part means much more willingness to engaged in scorched earth outcomes (by both companies and unions). Unions have taken over corporations (United Airlines for example), destroyed corporations (Eastern / National). Unions compete with each other as well.
- djbebs 4y ago
  That's the same as in europe, except perhaps that in europe often specific unions are associated with specific political parties and act in conjunction.
  - snowpid 4y ago
    No, in Europe, every country is very different on that topic. Just compare Switzerland vs. France.

InTheArena 4y ago

Can we stop pretending that a small subset of workers represent all workers? Union votes usually fail, which indicate that (charitably) they are often not representing a majority or a plurality of folks.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dopidopHN 4y ago
Can you specify what country you have in mind and the laws around union elections? I think that would help because the more I read about union laws in diverse place, the more I realize that it's not a even field. A set of questions that comes to mind in regards to union legal framework: is a union mandatory? if yes, starting what company size? If not, what can trigger a election? What is the status of the employee running in a union? Is there legal recourse in the event that some of those employee are terminated without cause?

everforward 4y ago

Those requests are really high for that area. The hub is in Boone County where the median individual income is $38k. $30/hr would be almost double that for a full-time worker, and roughly on par with a nurse or mid-level SWE living in Cincinnati (the nearest major city). That's before even talking about 22 days off per year. I don't think they're going to get those demands, but maybe they're starting high so they have some room to negotiate.