4 ms·

> Terminology shifting in the last 10-20 years is another sign of that othering. Or the development of the understanding that it is a spectrum? > they always

by danans 4y ago

> Terminology shifting in the last 10-20 years is another sign of that othering. Or the development of the understanding that it is a spectrum? > they always other somebody else until they come to other you Who are "they"?

PaulHoule 4y ago
Freud uses narcissism for two different things. The term gets fleshed out by later psychoanalysts, particularly Heinz Kohut and Otto Kernberg who seem to be talking about completely different populations of patients. Kohut in particular develops the concept that is described as "healthy narcissism" in Wikipedia and very much sees pathological narcissism as "narcissistic disturbance". If you had to blame somebody for the othering it starts with Kernberg, Lasch makes his contribution, probably the worst of them all is Sam Vaknin who claims to be a narcissist and obviously gets narcissistic supply by doing massive SEO spam on the subject to warn the world about the dangers of narcissism. (He'd probably agree he's the worst and that's the disease talking) There is a particular horror in that people are waking up to NPD being the "master personality disorder" in our culture in that people who are NPD or NPD-adjacent frequently rise to the top in business and political organizations. My first take is to reject "spectrum" in terms of autism spectrum because in the case of autism most people are not autistic at all. I think there are people with other disorders, particularly "schizoid spectrum" or "schizotypal spectrum" that want to imagine they are on the autism spectrum because there is so much awareness of autism. I would say that "narcissism" is a part of normal psychological organization and that (1) has something to do with why some people with NPD can dangerously hook people, and (2) complicates people who have other disorders. I knew a woman who I think had schizoaffective disorder (never got a real diagnosis or treatment) that that caused her to be disabled and on top of that had intense feelings of worthlessness because she was disabled (narcissism spectrum). It was the latter that I think led to her suicide.
- danans 4y ago
  I'm having difficulty understanding your response. Clearly narcissism is part of human nature, but are you saying that people make too much of NPD and that we should ignore the impacts of it, both on the individual and people they interact with?
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    (1) Whenever "othering" is going on the weak are victimized but the strong are able to protect themselves. Sam Vaknin presents a particular case study because his whole narrative and behavior around narcissism is an obvious manifestation of the disease. (Look at "Stack Ranking" as an institution where a person who can convince management that their glass is 70% full and that yours is 30% empty will always win out.) (2) If you've ever talked to someone in the limerent phase of love you will recognize that such a person will not bide any discourse that the love is a lost cause or that the love object is no damn good. "Naming and shaming" is a highly ineffective way to change people's behavior. (3) The psychology of narcissism is full of insight into everyday psychology, ordinary behavior, and questions like "why do social interventions often have the opposite effect as intended?" If "narcissism" just becomes a label we slap on some other, we can't have conversations which might actually proof people from damage by narcissists. (4) To take an example, some people would say the last president of the US was narcissistic and that he was a threat to democracy. On the other hand, one might say that democracy itself is problematic if somebody like that can run the gauntlet to get elected. Maybe that's "blaming the victim", but the real problem is the vulnerability of the population to a person with certain characteristics and simply calling out this person's characteristics has a polarizing effect where the people who weren't going to vote for him will glom on to this label and the people who were going to vote for this people will reject it. Daniel Boorstein in his 1963 book The Image thought that it was just a matter of time before celebrities would outcompete ordinary politicians and he might have been surprised it took as long as it did. The problem is bad enough that one might conclude that democracy is not such a great idea after all, but one thing for sure is that someone is going to try to replicate his success again.

by danans 4y ago

PaulHoule 4y ago

Freud uses narcissism for two different things. The term gets fleshed out by later psychoanalysts, particularly Heinz Kohut and Otto Kernberg who seem to be talking about completely different populations of patients. Kohut in particular develops the concept that is described as "healthy narcissism" in Wikipedia and very much sees pathological narcissism as "narcissistic disturbance". If you had to blame somebody for the othering it starts with Kernberg, Lasch makes his contribution, probably the worst of them all is Sam Vaknin who claims to be a narcissist and obviously gets narcissistic supply by doing massive SEO spam on the subject to warn the world about the dangers of narcissism. (He'd probably agree he's the worst and that's the disease talking) There is a particular horror in that people are waking up to NPD being the "master personality disorder" in our culture in that people who are NPD or NPD-adjacent frequently rise to the top in business and political organizations. My first take is to reject "spectrum" in terms of autism spectrum because in the case of autism most people are not autistic at all. I think there are people with other disorders, particularly "schizoid spectrum" or "schizotypal spectrum" that want to imagine they are on the autism spectrum because there is so much awareness of autism. I would say that "narcissism" is a part of normal psychological organization and that (1) has something to do with why some people with NPD can dangerously hook people, and (2) complicates people who have other disorders. I knew a woman who I think had schizoaffective disorder (never got a real diagnosis or treatment) that that caused her to be disabled and on top of that had intense feelings of worthlessness because she was disabled (narcissism spectrum). It was the latter that I think led to her suicide.

danans 4y ago
I'm having difficulty understanding your response. Clearly narcissism is part of human nature, but are you saying that people make too much of NPD and that we should ignore the impacts of it, both on the individual and people they interact with?
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  (1) Whenever "othering" is going on the weak are victimized but the strong are able to protect themselves. Sam Vaknin presents a particular case study because his whole narrative and behavior around narcissism is an obvious manifestation of the disease. (Look at "Stack Ranking" as an institution where a person who can convince management that their glass is 70% full and that yours is 30% empty will always win out.) (2) If you've ever talked to someone in the limerent phase of love you will recognize that such a person will not bide any discourse that the love is a lost cause or that the love object is no damn good. "Naming and shaming" is a highly ineffective way to change people's behavior. (3) The psychology of narcissism is full of insight into everyday psychology, ordinary behavior, and questions like "why do social interventions often have the opposite effect as intended?" If "narcissism" just becomes a label we slap on some other, we can't have conversations which might actually proof people from damage by narcissists. (4) To take an example, some people would say the last president of the US was narcissistic and that he was a threat to democracy. On the other hand, one might say that democracy itself is problematic if somebody like that can run the gauntlet to get elected. Maybe that's "blaming the victim", but the real problem is the vulnerability of the population to a person with certain characteristics and simply calling out this person's characteristics has a polarizing effect where the people who weren't going to vote for him will glom on to this label and the people who were going to vote for this people will reject it. Daniel Boorstein in his 1963 book The Image thought that it was just a matter of time before celebrities would outcompete ordinary politicians and he might have been surprised it took as long as it did. The problem is bad enough that one might conclude that democracy is not such a great idea after all, but one thing for sure is that someone is going to try to replicate his success again.