4 ms·

I support measures to phase out polluting cars, but as a driver I find the cognitive load of figuring out where I can drive and which fees are payable is gettin

I support measures to phase out polluting cars, but as a driver I find the cognitive load of figuring out where I can drive and which fees are payable is getting rather high. "Drivers of cars made before 2006 must pre-pay a £12.50 fee online if they drive past this point, or an £80 fine if they forget to go online and pay" Imagine that on a roadsign... That would kinda make sense... But the actual roadsigns look like this:. https://media2.zipcar.com/drupal-presales/files/inline-images/ULEZ-1165678.jpg https://media2.zipcar.com/drupal-presales/files/inline-image... As a driver, will you understand what you have to do if you drive past that sign without lots of local knowledge?

hankchinaski 4y ago
Just get a compliant car so you don’t have to worry about where and when to pay
- pifm_guy 4y ago
  But there are plenty of other unclear road signs that apply to everyone. Eg. "No left turn on school days, except permit holders, except for access". Whose school days? What kind of permit? Where do I have to be going for it to count as "access"? Do I need documentary evidence of the access, for example a receipt from a shop down that road? Left turns may not be allowed, but are u-turns allowed? How about driving 50m past, u-turning, then turning right? Am I allowed to stop the car to look up the school dates on my phone? Or would I then be stopping in a no stopping zone? Driving anywhere unfamiliar around London as a non-taxi-driver seems fraught with fines despite a driver's honest best efforts to stick to the rules.
  - dabeeeenster 4y ago
    I live in London. I've never, ever seen a sign like this. There are confusing parking signs, I will admit, but if you can provide evidence of the sign you refer to I would love to see it!
    - iso1631 4y ago
      Doesn't sound like something I've seen in Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions [0] There are sometimes signs which only apply at school times, they say things like "School 20 when lights show" - I think I've seen them in Scotland https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/made https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/made
    - bbbbb5 4y ago
      Those signs exist in the US, not in the UK.
  - bojangleslover 4y ago
    Stuff like that is why the UK is becoming a developing country
edf13 4y ago
From what I understand - it’s the other way round… it’s cars made AFTER 2006 that the fee applies to.
- _benedict 4y ago
  No. It’s a minimum fuel efficiency standard that petrol cars registered after 2006 were legally required to meet. So it is a very lax standard in reality, and only removes the worst vehicles from the roads.
  - edf13 4y ago
    That’s what I’m saying / the congestion area is only for post 2006 vehicles.
    - _benedict 4y ago
      The area is for all vehicles, and most petrol vehicles registered before 2006 must pay to enter it.
    - iso1631 4y ago
      This isn't a congestion area, it's a low emission area. Vehicles before 2006 probably don't meet the emission standards and thus have to pay the premium. Cars after 2007 probably do meet the standards and thus don't have to pay the premium.
- clouddrover 4y ago
  From the article: "It means only cars that meet strict emission requirements will be allowed to enter London areas without incurring a ULEZ charge: Euro 4 engine compliance for petrol cars (which includes any cars registered after 1 January 2006) and Euro 6 (after 1 January 2016) for diesel."
- edf13 4y ago
  Oddly enough - one of my cars is a 2007 4.5 litre petrol engined… which is ULEZ compliant! Surely a vehicle like mine is the one that should be taxed!
pluijzer 4y ago
Because of a similar confusing sign I have a avoided driving through my city centre for two years only to find out my car was well within the limits all that time.
- knorker 4y ago
  The world is probably better off for you not driving there, so doesn't sound like a bad side effect.
  - blowski 4y ago
    I have a relative who refuses to drive his old Jeep in London "so they can't have his money", with no awareness that this is the whole point.
  - pluijzer 4y ago
    Absolutely agree, it also solidified the habit to just cycle there.
pastacacioepepe 4y ago
> as a driver I find the cognitive load of figuring out where I can drive and which fees are payable is getting rather high. I guess that's the whole point, to discourage car usage. On the other hand, as someone who doesn't own a car on purpose, to have the city where I live in being constantely polluted and invaded by so many cars has caused me great health and stress issues. The idea that my children are risking illnesses because we are forced to breathe such toxic air from motorists makes me feels impotent and I wish it was just a matter of cognitive load for me, but instead I'm always worried about my kids' health and I realize they are growing up in spaces designed for Cars and not for people. It almost feels like a dystopia to me, as kids all over the world are getting preventable illnesses thanks to car pollution and we live in concrete hellscapes.
- happymellon 4y ago
  I travelled in to London on Saturday. I don't live in London, but was able to take the Elizabeth Line from Reading to the Excel, in just over an hour for myself and my daughter for about £30 return. 24 hour parking was £10. I've been parking outside the zone and undergrounding it in for a long time, it's just now able to be further out than Hammersmith. I love it.
knorker 4y ago
> As a driver, will you understand what you have to do if you drive past that sign without lots of local knowledge? The actual criteria would not be useful on a sign. It's not "made before 2006". It's "ULEZ compliant", or "Euro 4 (NOx)". https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/cars?intcmp=52215 https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/car... And you can just check your vehicle by license plate: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/ https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/ > or an £80 fine if they forget to go online and pay" "Actually £160 but it's £80 if you pay within 14 days" The sign will end up like the one in futurama: https://www.reddit.com/r/firstworldanarchists/comments/64pamb/whoever_put_this_sign_in_futurama_gets_it/ https://www.reddit.com/r/firstworldanarchists/comments/64pam...

hankchinaski 4y ago

Just get a compliant car so you don’t have to worry about where and when to pay

pifm_guy 4y ago
But there are plenty of other unclear road signs that apply to everyone. Eg. "No left turn on school days, except permit holders, except for access". Whose school days? What kind of permit? Where do I have to be going for it to count as "access"? Do I need documentary evidence of the access, for example a receipt from a shop down that road? Left turns may not be allowed, but are u-turns allowed? How about driving 50m past, u-turning, then turning right? Am I allowed to stop the car to look up the school dates on my phone? Or would I then be stopping in a no stopping zone? Driving anywhere unfamiliar around London as a non-taxi-driver seems fraught with fines despite a driver's honest best efforts to stick to the rules.
- dabeeeenster 4y ago
  I live in London. I've never, ever seen a sign like this. There are confusing parking signs, I will admit, but if you can provide evidence of the sign you refer to I would love to see it!
  - iso1631 4y ago
    Doesn't sound like something I've seen in Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions [0] There are sometimes signs which only apply at school times, they say things like "School 20 when lights show" - I think I've seen them in Scotland https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/made https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/made
  - bbbbb5 4y ago
    Those signs exist in the US, not in the UK.
- bojangleslover 4y ago
  Stuff like that is why the UK is becoming a developing country

edf13 4y ago

From what I understand - it’s the other way round… it’s cars made AFTER 2006 that the fee applies to.

_benedict 4y ago
No. It’s a minimum fuel efficiency standard that petrol cars registered after 2006 were legally required to meet. So it is a very lax standard in reality, and only removes the worst vehicles from the roads.
- edf13 4y ago
  That’s what I’m saying / the congestion area is only for post 2006 vehicles.
  - _benedict 4y ago
    The area is for all vehicles, and most petrol vehicles registered before 2006 must pay to enter it.
  - iso1631 4y ago
    This isn't a congestion area, it's a low emission area. Vehicles before 2006 probably don't meet the emission standards and thus have to pay the premium. Cars after 2007 probably do meet the standards and thus don't have to pay the premium.
clouddrover 4y ago
From the article: "It means only cars that meet strict emission requirements will be allowed to enter London areas without incurring a ULEZ charge: Euro 4 engine compliance for petrol cars (which includes any cars registered after 1 January 2006) and Euro 6 (after 1 January 2016) for diesel."
edf13 4y ago
Oddly enough - one of my cars is a 2007 4.5 litre petrol engined… which is ULEZ compliant! Surely a vehicle like mine is the one that should be taxed!

pluijzer 4y ago

Because of a similar confusing sign I have a avoided driving through my city centre for two years only to find out my car was well within the limits all that time.

knorker 4y ago
The world is probably better off for you not driving there, so doesn't sound like a bad side effect.
- blowski 4y ago
  I have a relative who refuses to drive his old Jeep in London "so they can't have his money", with no awareness that this is the whole point.
- pluijzer 4y ago
  Absolutely agree, it also solidified the habit to just cycle there.

pastacacioepepe 4y ago

> as a driver I find the cognitive load of figuring out where I can drive and which fees are payable is getting rather high. I guess that's the whole point, to discourage car usage. On the other hand, as someone who doesn't own a car on purpose, to have the city where I live in being constantely polluted and invaded by so many cars has caused me great health and stress issues. The idea that my children are risking illnesses because we are forced to breathe such toxic air from motorists makes me feels impotent and I wish it was just a matter of cognitive load for me, but instead I'm always worried about my kids' health and I realize they are growing up in spaces designed for Cars and not for people. It almost feels like a dystopia to me, as kids all over the world are getting preventable illnesses thanks to car pollution and we live in concrete hellscapes.

happymellon 4y ago
I travelled in to London on Saturday. I don't live in London, but was able to take the Elizabeth Line from Reading to the Excel, in just over an hour for myself and my daughter for about £30 return. 24 hour parking was £10. I've been parking outside the zone and undergrounding it in for a long time, it's just now able to be further out than Hammersmith. I love it.

knorker 4y ago

> As a driver, will you understand what you have to do if you drive past that sign without lots of local knowledge? The actual criteria would not be useful on a sign. It's not "made before 2006". It's "ULEZ compliant", or "Euro 4 (NOx)". https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/cars?intcmp=52215 https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/car... And you can just check your vehicle by license plate: https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/ https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/check-your-vehicle/ > or an £80 fine if they forget to go online and pay" "Actually £160 but it's £80 if you pay within 14 days" The sign will end up like the one in futurama: https://www.reddit.com/r/firstworldanarchists/comments/64pamb/whoever_put_this_sign_in_futurama_gets_it/ https://www.reddit.com/r/firstworldanarchists/comments/64pam...