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While I agree that being somewhat physically close can help, I disagree that high-density cities are a solution. I live in an apartment in such a European city

While I agree that being somewhat physically close can help, I disagree that high-density cities are a solution. I live in an apartment in such a European city. I wouldn't be able to recognize my next-door neighbor in a crowd. I've never made any friends because they lived close to me. It's always been through places where people would get together anyway: school (lived in the suburbs at the time), work, other activities. Density brings its own issues. When there are so many people around, a sense of anonymity sets in. No one cares about any one given person when you cross paths with thousands every day. People rarely, if ever, randomly strike up conversations in the metro. > it feels good to know that humans are within 10 meters rather than 40. No, it does not. Because people are not only positive, many are extremely annoying. It's horrible when you can't get away from it even for five minutes of respite. They are noisy. I hate with a passion my upstairs neighbor who thinks it's fine to blast his TV 24/7. Yes, even at 3 in the morning. Yes, I can go complain. No, he doesn't bother opening the door to listen to me (although I wouldn't bet he can actually hear the doorbell). They don't care about other people's things (try parking a car on the streets of Paris for two days – and I'm not even talking about theft or willful vandalism, though that's an issue, of course). In some places, they really don't care about public cleanliness. And with the point above about anonymity, social pressure works much less well to force people into behaving properly. The places where I've seen the most "community spirit" is where people were not overly densely packed together, just "close enough".`

dazc 4y ago
I agree with all of this. I spent some time living cheaply in Spain a few years ago, in high density housing, and I would describe it best as a living hell. Slamming doors, multiple barking dogs on every balcony, conversations held at such high volume as to sound like people were murdering each other, etc. On the positive side, everyone would smile at me and wish me a good day if our paths ever crossed leaving or entering the building. As a kid I lived in a middle class suburb where everyone knew each other and, at the time, I was fairly happy with this. As an adult though, I would find it uncomfortable. I guess there is an ideal balance between loneliness and being suffocated that isn't easy to get right.
goodpoint 4y ago
You are making a logical error. Seydor pointed out that low density harms communities, which is true. High density is a required condition for building communities, but not sufficient.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  It's a question of degree. The way I understand the last part of seydor's point: > Most european cities are old and very high density, built for horses is that "high density, at the level of European cities, is a required condition. I take issue with this level of density being a requirement. My point is that said level is too much and, actually, goes against the intended outcome because this much proximity creates tension between the people. Instead, in my view, the optimal level of density is "average", somewhere betwen "US suburbia sprawl" and "European city can't breathe density". Now, of course, "average" is not an actual measure, but it allows at least to eliminate European cities as a model to strive for. I've seen many an article in the local (France) papers talking about increasing levels of solitude, and people always chime in with "Yeah, that's [big city] for you. In my [small town], it's much easier to make new friends".
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    > European city can't breathe There is no such thing. European cities are not HK. There are density maps available to check.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      > European cities are not HK. Indeed, they are not. Paris: 21,000/km2 (53,000/sq mi) Barcelona: 16,000/km2 (41,000/sq mi) London: 5,598/km2 (14,500/sq mi) Madrid: 5,300/km2 (14,000/sq mi) Amsterdam: 5,214/km2 (13,500/sq mi) Hong Kong: 6,801/km2 (17,614.5/sq mi) Shanghai: 3,900/km2 (10,000/sq mi) Source: the cities' pages on Wikipedia. --- Also, X being worse than Y doesn't make Y good.
      - goodpoint 4y ago

dazc 4y ago

I agree with all of this. I spent some time living cheaply in Spain a few years ago, in high density housing, and I would describe it best as a living hell. Slamming doors, multiple barking dogs on every balcony, conversations held at such high volume as to sound like people were murdering each other, etc. On the positive side, everyone would smile at me and wish me a good day if our paths ever crossed leaving or entering the building. As a kid I lived in a middle class suburb where everyone knew each other and, at the time, I was fairly happy with this. As an adult though, I would find it uncomfortable. I guess there is an ideal balance between loneliness and being suffocated that isn't easy to get right.

goodpoint 4y ago

You are making a logical error. Seydor pointed out that low density harms communities, which is true. High density is a required condition for building communities, but not sufficient.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
It's a question of degree. The way I understand the last part of seydor's point: > Most european cities are old and very high density, built for horses is that "high density, at the level of European cities, is a required condition. I take issue with this level of density being a requirement. My point is that said level is too much and, actually, goes against the intended outcome because this much proximity creates tension between the people. Instead, in my view, the optimal level of density is "average", somewhere betwen "US suburbia sprawl" and "European city can't breathe density". Now, of course, "average" is not an actual measure, but it allows at least to eliminate European cities as a model to strive for. I've seen many an article in the local (France) papers talking about increasing levels of solitude, and people always chime in with "Yeah, that's [big city] for you. In my [small town], it's much easier to make new friends".
- goodpoint 4y ago
  > European city can't breathe There is no such thing. European cities are not HK. There are density maps available to check.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    > European cities are not HK. Indeed, they are not. Paris: 21,000/km2 (53,000/sq mi) Barcelona: 16,000/km2 (41,000/sq mi) London: 5,598/km2 (14,500/sq mi) Madrid: 5,300/km2 (14,000/sq mi) Amsterdam: 5,214/km2 (13,500/sq mi) Hong Kong: 6,801/km2 (17,614.5/sq mi) Shanghai: 3,900/km2 (10,000/sq mi) Source: the cities' pages on Wikipedia. --- Also, X being worse than Y doesn't make Y good.
    - goodpoint 4y ago