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as surely as water will wet us as surely as fire will burn the gods of the copybook headings with terror and slaughter return usury destroys societies

quotemstr 4y ago
Kipling is fantastic. Read the whole poem: https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_copybook.htm https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_copybook.htm As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race, I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place. Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all. We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn: But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind, So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind. We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace, Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place, But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome. With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch, They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch; They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings; So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things. When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace. They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease. But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know." On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life (Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife) Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death." In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all, By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul; But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die." Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more. As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man There are only four things certain since Social Progress began. That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire, And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire; And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins, As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn, The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
Bilal_io 4y ago
It really does. I believe it's really bad for society as a whole. I know not everyone agrees, but as a Muslim, it's really tough for me thinking of starting a business without loans from a bank. I'll eventually have to find an investor, or better save up enough to get started slowly.
- atonse 4y ago
  Sorry but a genuine question, what does being a Muslim have to do with the rest of your statement? I have read/heard that early Christianity had something against charging interest or similar. Is it the same with Islam? Was that related to stories of money lenders being mostly Jewish? (Or were they? Or was that some rumor to stoke resentment?). Apologies if I’m asking too ignorant a question. I don’t come from a Judeo-Christian background.
  - Bilal_io 4y ago
    Usery is forbidden in the 3 Abrahamic religions, which are Islamic, Christianity and Judaism. My historic understanding (I am happy to be corrected) was that Jewish people practiced usery with non-jewish people but was forbidden within them, and at the same time it was not practiced at all by christians, and that was an opportunity for Jewish merchants during the crusades to establish what we know today as banking. Christians couldn't travels from Europe to Jerusalem safely without being robbed, so they'd get a note from a Jewish person in Europe and cache it on the other side, and vice versa. Today, most Christians from what I see do not mind dealing with usery. Most Muslims still stay away from it as it's considered riba.
    - pfortuny 4y ago
      Usury is not interest. Interest is not usury. They are different things, at least in out modern language. One has a moral value, the orher has not.
  - recursivedoubts 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance "Sharia prohibits riba, or usury, defined as interest paid on all loans of money"

quotemstr 4y ago

Kipling is fantastic. Read the whole poem: https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_copybook.htm https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_copybook.htm As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race, I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place. Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all. We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn: But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind, So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind. We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace, Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place, But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome. With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch, They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch; They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings; So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things. When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace. They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease. But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know." On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life (Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife) Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death." In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all, By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul; But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy, And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die." Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more. As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man There are only four things certain since Social Progress began. That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire, And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire; And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins, As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn, The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

Bilal_io 4y ago

It really does. I believe it's really bad for society as a whole. I know not everyone agrees, but as a Muslim, it's really tough for me thinking of starting a business without loans from a bank. I'll eventually have to find an investor, or better save up enough to get started slowly.

atonse 4y ago
Sorry but a genuine question, what does being a Muslim have to do with the rest of your statement? I have read/heard that early Christianity had something against charging interest or similar. Is it the same with Islam? Was that related to stories of money lenders being mostly Jewish? (Or were they? Or was that some rumor to stoke resentment?). Apologies if I’m asking too ignorant a question. I don’t come from a Judeo-Christian background.
- Bilal_io 4y ago
  Usery is forbidden in the 3 Abrahamic religions, which are Islamic, Christianity and Judaism. My historic understanding (I am happy to be corrected) was that Jewish people practiced usery with non-jewish people but was forbidden within them, and at the same time it was not practiced at all by christians, and that was an opportunity for Jewish merchants during the crusades to establish what we know today as banking. Christians couldn't travels from Europe to Jerusalem safely without being robbed, so they'd get a note from a Jewish person in Europe and cache it on the other side, and vice versa. Today, most Christians from what I see do not mind dealing with usery. Most Muslims still stay away from it as it's considered riba.
  - pfortuny 4y ago
    Usury is not interest. Interest is not usury. They are different things, at least in out modern language. One has a moral value, the orher has not.
- recursivedoubts 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_banking_and_finance "Sharia prohibits riba, or usury, defined as interest paid on all loans of money"