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You misunderstood what I was saying. What I meant was that lying and manipulating are generally considered objectively bad by most people. However, that behavio

You misunderstood what I was saying. What I meant was that lying and manipulating are generally considered objectively bad by most people. However, that behavior is considered normal in corporate cultures. It's even part of the job if you're in marketing or sales! And no, I won't stop judging large groups of people who's jobs are built on deception. And I won't stop judging people who are naturally drawn to those jobs. I've had enough of this whole system and I'm done apologizing for saying negative things just because these behaviors and jobs are normal.

paulcole 4y ago
> It's even part of the job if you're in marketing or sales! I know I’m not going to change your mind here, but I stress: It really really isn’t. Marketing and sales are about communicating some value to people who might need that value. You can find this distasteful if you like.
- serverholic 4y ago
  Sexualizing products. Creating cute jokes during the super bowl. Implying that if you buy this product, you'll improve your social status. Am I expected to believe that these things are about communicating value? I'm sorry but that's a steaming pile of BS. Using power tactics with your customers during sales calls. Creating a sense of urgency. Bending the truth to make your product appear more favorable in general and vs competitors products. Am I expected to believe that these things are about communicating value? I'm sorry but that's a steaming pile of BS.
  - paulcole 4y ago
    Reminds me of how I find computer programming to be an amoral profession because missiles have guidance systems and Al Qaeda has a website.
    - serverholic 4y ago
      This is a false equivalency. Most software engineers aren't working on weapons, but most sales and marketing people engage in deception and other amoral practices. Not to mention that software engineers literally build the products. Sales and marketing's job is to shove it down people's throats.
      - insightcheck 4y ago
        To the contrary, I think paulcole made a great point. It doesn’t need to be weapons. A programmer who makes a social media feed more addictive isn’t necessarily moral. But a salesperson/marketer can promote something generally seen as good, or at least far more good than the example programmer. Ad campaigns can remind people to vote, encourage people to quit smoking, or convince people to avoid drunken driving. A marketer is behind for the design and distribution of these public advocacy campaigns.
        serverholic 4y ago
        No it's not a great point. It's a point made to distract from the real issue. It's a debate tactic. If you read the conversation carefully I'm trying to discuss the fundamental nature of the professions, not the specific products they are building or selling. That was something paulcole brought up. The fundamental nature of sales and marketing is manipulating people for personal gain. You could be selling hugs or whatever warm and fuzzy product you can imagine, but at the end of the day the sales person's job is to be the best people manipulator they can be. And I've seen it countless times through my career. I've met many sales people, I've sat in on sales calls, and I've heard them discussing their trade. It's honestly disgusting. On the other hand, the fundamental nature of engineering is building things. It's bringing something new into the world. It couldn't be more different from sales and marketing.
        kingboss 4y ago
        They are also the reason why you have a job. Without sales you have nothing. Without marketing you don't know what to build. Building stuff that no one wants is useless.

paulcole 4y ago

> It's even part of the job if you're in marketing or sales! I know I’m not going to change your mind here, but I stress: It really really isn’t. Marketing and sales are about communicating some value to people who might need that value. You can find this distasteful if you like.

serverholic 4y ago
Sexualizing products. Creating cute jokes during the super bowl. Implying that if you buy this product, you'll improve your social status. Am I expected to believe that these things are about communicating value? I'm sorry but that's a steaming pile of BS. Using power tactics with your customers during sales calls. Creating a sense of urgency. Bending the truth to make your product appear more favorable in general and vs competitors products. Am I expected to believe that these things are about communicating value? I'm sorry but that's a steaming pile of BS.
- paulcole 4y ago
  Reminds me of how I find computer programming to be an amoral profession because missiles have guidance systems and Al Qaeda has a website.
  - serverholic 4y ago
    This is a false equivalency. Most software engineers aren't working on weapons, but most sales and marketing people engage in deception and other amoral practices. Not to mention that software engineers literally build the products. Sales and marketing's job is to shove it down people's throats.
    - insightcheck 4y ago
      To the contrary, I think paulcole made a great point. It doesn’t need to be weapons. A programmer who makes a social media feed more addictive isn’t necessarily moral. But a salesperson/marketer can promote something generally seen as good, or at least far more good than the example programmer. Ad campaigns can remind people to vote, encourage people to quit smoking, or convince people to avoid drunken driving. A marketer is behind for the design and distribution of these public advocacy campaigns.
      - serverholic 4y ago
        No it's not a great point. It's a point made to distract from the real issue. It's a debate tactic. If you read the conversation carefully I'm trying to discuss the fundamental nature of the professions, not the specific products they are building or selling. That was something paulcole brought up. The fundamental nature of sales and marketing is manipulating people for personal gain. You could be selling hugs or whatever warm and fuzzy product you can imagine, but at the end of the day the sales person's job is to be the best people manipulator they can be. And I've seen it countless times through my career. I've met many sales people, I've sat in on sales calls, and I've heard them discussing their trade. It's honestly disgusting. On the other hand, the fundamental nature of engineering is building things. It's bringing something new into the world. It couldn't be more different from sales and marketing.
        kingboss 4y ago
        They are also the reason why you have a job. Without sales you have nothing. Without marketing you don't know what to build. Building stuff that no one wants is useless.