9 ms·

These articles come out with some regularity, and yet no one ever says, "Yep! That's totally me! I'm a non contributing zero but I've made a living at making

These articles come out with some regularity, and yet no one ever says, "Yep! That's totally me! I'm a non contributing zero but I've made a living at making others think I add to the team!" Everyone knows people like this, but no one is one.

theknocker 4y ago
drbeast 4y ago
Well, that's actually me. I do a lot of stuff on this list. No shame, I'm in upper management.
davesque 4y ago
I think the reality is that anyone might engage in these behaviors from time to time. I've seen myself doing some of these things in my weaker moments and I've seen others doing them. And I've seen those same people turn around and contribute positively on other days. Of course no one is going to categorize themselves as highly overrated. Maybe that's because people often don't reliably fit into specific categories.
- ilyt 4y ago
  Well, some of them are not exactly something you'd do on purpose, can be just from the work flow, or just how some people are > Distract with Arguments about Minutiae is easy for tech people as we could discuss every detail for tens of minutes ignoring the fact remaining 4 people in the meeting don't give a shit about the minutia of solution, just that it is done > Time It So You Look Good (Or Everyone Else Looks Bad) is easy if you (or your manager!) mismanages priorities of tasks and you don't have habit of starting with stuff that might block other people first.. Like, simeple example, ticket looks "long" from title so you don't even read it before you have longer time period. You read it, then it turns out before start you need some information first from the submitter. You now delayed tasks by hours, maybe days, compared to if you read it first, sent the "give me stuff I need" message, then went back to doing other things before the response came
oxfordmale 4y ago
There is a fine line between being highly overrated or just being successful at selling your achievements. I suspect a lot of people start out successfully selling their genuine achievements, but over time realise they can just do the selling.
- rramadass 4y ago
  Well said! They get caught up in the image they have created of themselves. I think there is a need for "Social Adaptation" but taken too far becomes counter-productive i.e. you lose authenticity.
q-big 4y ago
First: there is of course an incentive not to admit this. Second: I do believe that many people on HN really deeply care about technology/hacking topics and have detest for office politics. On the other hand, the people that the article discuss are good at office politics/marketing themselves and often don't have such a deep knowledge about programming. Thus, I would indeed assume that the typical HN reader/writer less likely fits into the "highly overrated people" pattern of the article.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- paulcole 4y ago
  The average HN reader is highly overrated for other reasons. > have detest for office politics The problem is that many people on HN believe any interaction with someone with an MBA, marketing background, manager, etc. is “office politics.”
  - GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
    Any interaction with another human at work is politics
    - paulcole 4y ago
      Yes, but derisively referring any interaction with another human at work as “office politics” is the problem.
      - serverholic 4y ago
        It can turn into office politics fast. Maybe you say the wrong thing and now you and your coworker have an awkward tension. IMO it's almost never worth trying to make friends with your coworkers. Be nice, be helpful, and do a good job but keep your friends and work life separate.
        4y ago
yarg 4y ago
I think a lot of these people are on the 'spectrum' of sociopathy. At very least they're superficially charming bullshitters. Either way, they're not the sort of people to call themselves out - even when they're fully aware of what they're doing.
cplusplusfellow 4y ago
They make up a really small percentage of the population and that group generally isn’t reading articles and introspecting.
mberning 4y ago
What is the likelihood that one of these people is on such a site as this? They are avoiding work after all. Not trying to get better at it.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Hacker News is BRILLIANT for avoiding work :-)
  - mberning 4y ago
    Fair point. Although in my experience the most useless people at work usually spend working hours jacking around with their plex server, daytrading crypto, etc.
LazyCroHacker 4y ago
Yo. Ask me anything. Edit : I'm actually serious. I don't do most of the things in the article, or at least definitely not with the intent and detail - but I've been moved over time from being a pretty good and certainly respected hands on techie, to a middle to upper manager with massive imposter syndrome, and certainly feel I contribute less for more credit. Client loves me. My boss loves me. My team loves me. But I myself definitely struggle to always understand my value and I definitely spend many hours each week fine tuning PowerPoint slides, reporting, over communicating, team building, teaching people to communicate differently, etc - which again, seems to make everybody happy and impressed. Maybe my hidden talent is communicating between techies and business? Possibly there's real value in my role - but DEFINITELY not according to any hacker news colleagues - nearly everything I do is venomously dismissed by th HN zeitgeist (I'm neither surprised nor resentful - I spent 20 years saying same things, until I have become them:) . So - AMA :)
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Maybe attaching all the value to technical contributions was incorrect behaviour in first place? I used to do that a lot until I got my first real not fully technical job and realised that all the technical stuff is actually much more learnable by many, much less impactful on the work than the dark art of working with humans. Maybe its the zeal of the convert but I think the technical contributions are not that important unless there is no margin for errors or its groundbreaking work and most of the time its not.
  - ilyt 4y ago
    That's because people working with humans tend to be TERRIBLE at keeping proper documentation about their job. If "people person" kept full psychological profile of each client and manager they work with it would be way easier to replace them so in a way it is a job-security-guaranteeing move to be obtuse. Joking aside the way I see it is that you have to have some vision on the product, enough organization skill (which can be another person specialized in translating "visioner" ramblings into actionable stuff) to organize making it, enough marketing skill to actually sell it, and then enough tech/engineering oriented people to not fuck the product up. Bad engineering - product that kinda works shit but depending on niche it can still be good enough to be profitable Bad marketing/client acquisition - most cases bankruptcy, very small amount of things "sell itself", unless you get luck. Bad vision - well, if rest is fine you either pivot to something else and deliver or bankrupt Bad communication/managing - inefficiencies at every way that can and will hamper everyone else.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
The acceptance of others in our team called "society", who assume as a matter of human dignity that we each "add" something, is how we all get by and live. We're all nice people, terrified of growing old and alone, being left out out in the cold and hungry. We're all part of the same team, under the same shit system that makes us feel safer by devaluing others.
- rramadass 4y ago
  Damn; Don't rip apart the facade like that!
mrtksn 4y ago
I actually don't like that kind of articles at all precisely because I tend to find things from myself and the authors often do very bad job in analysing these behaviours because the articles are one sided "hit pieces" that essentially promote a narrative or a worldview. All the same behaviours can be written in a self improvement post on LinkedIn or something or a successful person might try to attribute the success to these behaviours. In its core its all the same, at best people trying to explain things they don't understand using broken mental models and at worst people trying to explain their failure through their virtues(I could have been great but I'm too good of a person to act in that way). IMHO all these behaviours have different roots and dynamics and plays little role in the actual results(being successful or overrated).
- rramadass 4y ago
  Good nuanced view point!
ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
I have known many folks like this. I have found they don't really last long, in the evironments in which I worked. I've definitely not been one, but I have been in ultra-high-performing environments, in a Japanese company (where they watch everything), so it became habit. Even so, I often feel like I was the dumbest kid in the room, because I was around some damn smart people. But I do find that making a negative posting, is a great way to get "engagement," and it's fairly common. There's lots of "Y'all are doing it wrong" posts, out there, compared to "This is why I think what I do, works well" posts. Basically, we reward negativity.
toast0 4y ago
You could probably say this about my last year or so at my previous job, but I didn't really use these strategies. I just had a plan to leave without leaving a gap, so I intentionally allowed my ongoijg work to be taken over, stopped picking up new things, and made sure to finish up the loose ends. I also had some time for leadership and mentoring, but I think that was more real than the type of leadership in the article; I did build a working prototype and provided real code review help and meeting support (which isn't very technical, but can be really helpful for a junior employee to keep a project moving). At the end, people expressed to me that they thought it would be hard for them after I left, but it really wasn't. Also, I'd have to say, if you're at a small company, being the person who sets up corporate/production accounts gets you in as an important person for new employees and really helps with being overrated, because everyone has interacted with you.
ilyt 4y ago
...how many people in general you know that tell other their flaws and "crimes" out of blue ? It's just not the thing people do, and I don't think many do that with premeditation too, by mix of impostor complex and trying to look busy for the boss

theknocker 4y ago

drbeast 4y ago

Well, that's actually me. I do a lot of stuff on this list. No shame, I'm in upper management.

davesque 4y ago

I think the reality is that anyone might engage in these behaviors from time to time. I've seen myself doing some of these things in my weaker moments and I've seen others doing them. And I've seen those same people turn around and contribute positively on other days. Of course no one is going to categorize themselves as highly overrated. Maybe that's because people often don't reliably fit into specific categories.

ilyt 4y ago
Well, some of them are not exactly something you'd do on purpose, can be just from the work flow, or just how some people are > Distract with Arguments about Minutiae is easy for tech people as we could discuss every detail for tens of minutes ignoring the fact remaining 4 people in the meeting don't give a shit about the minutia of solution, just that it is done > Time It So You Look Good (Or Everyone Else Looks Bad) is easy if you (or your manager!) mismanages priorities of tasks and you don't have habit of starting with stuff that might block other people first.. Like, simeple example, ticket looks "long" from title so you don't even read it before you have longer time period. You read it, then it turns out before start you need some information first from the submitter. You now delayed tasks by hours, maybe days, compared to if you read it first, sent the "give me stuff I need" message, then went back to doing other things before the response came

oxfordmale 4y ago

There is a fine line between being highly overrated or just being successful at selling your achievements. I suspect a lot of people start out successfully selling their genuine achievements, but over time realise they can just do the selling.

rramadass 4y ago
Well said! They get caught up in the image they have created of themselves. I think there is a need for "Social Adaptation" but taken too far becomes counter-productive i.e. you lose authenticity.

q-big 4y ago

First: there is of course an incentive not to admit this. Second: I do believe that many people on HN really deeply care about technology/hacking topics and have detest for office politics. On the other hand, the people that the article discuss are good at office politics/marketing themselves and often don't have such a deep knowledge about programming. Thus, I would indeed assume that the typical HN reader/writer less likely fits into the "highly overrated people" pattern of the article.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
paulcole 4y ago
The average HN reader is highly overrated for other reasons. > have detest for office politics The problem is that many people on HN believe any interaction with someone with an MBA, marketing background, manager, etc. is “office politics.”
- GoOnThenDoTell 4y ago
  Any interaction with another human at work is politics
  - paulcole 4y ago
    Yes, but derisively referring any interaction with another human at work as “office politics” is the problem.
    - serverholic 4y ago
      It can turn into office politics fast. Maybe you say the wrong thing and now you and your coworker have an awkward tension. IMO it's almost never worth trying to make friends with your coworkers. Be nice, be helpful, and do a good job but keep your friends and work life separate.
      - 4y ago

yarg 4y ago

I think a lot of these people are on the 'spectrum' of sociopathy. At very least they're superficially charming bullshitters. Either way, they're not the sort of people to call themselves out - even when they're fully aware of what they're doing.

cplusplusfellow 4y ago

They make up a really small percentage of the population and that group generally isn’t reading articles and introspecting.

mberning 4y ago

What is the likelihood that one of these people is on such a site as this? They are avoiding work after all. Not trying to get better at it.

NikolaNovak 4y ago
Hacker News is BRILLIANT for avoiding work :-)
- mberning 4y ago
  Fair point. Although in my experience the most useless people at work usually spend working hours jacking around with their plex server, daytrading crypto, etc.

LazyCroHacker 4y ago

Yo. Ask me anything. Edit : I'm actually serious. I don't do most of the things in the article, or at least definitely not with the intent and detail - but I've been moved over time from being a pretty good and certainly respected hands on techie, to a middle to upper manager with massive imposter syndrome, and certainly feel I contribute less for more credit. Client loves me. My boss loves me. My team loves me. But I myself definitely struggle to always understand my value and I definitely spend many hours each week fine tuning PowerPoint slides, reporting, over communicating, team building, teaching people to communicate differently, etc - which again, seems to make everybody happy and impressed. Maybe my hidden talent is communicating between techies and business? Possibly there's real value in my role - but DEFINITELY not according to any hacker news colleagues - nearly everything I do is venomously dismissed by th HN zeitgeist (I'm neither surprised nor resentful - I spent 20 years saying same things, until I have become them:) . So - AMA :)

mrtksn 4y ago
Maybe attaching all the value to technical contributions was incorrect behaviour in first place? I used to do that a lot until I got my first real not fully technical job and realised that all the technical stuff is actually much more learnable by many, much less impactful on the work than the dark art of working with humans. Maybe its the zeal of the convert but I think the technical contributions are not that important unless there is no margin for errors or its groundbreaking work and most of the time its not.
- ilyt 4y ago
  That's because people working with humans tend to be TERRIBLE at keeping proper documentation about their job. If "people person" kept full psychological profile of each client and manager they work with it would be way easier to replace them so in a way it is a job-security-guaranteeing move to be obtuse. Joking aside the way I see it is that you have to have some vision on the product, enough organization skill (which can be another person specialized in translating "visioner" ramblings into actionable stuff) to organize making it, enough marketing skill to actually sell it, and then enough tech/engineering oriented people to not fuck the product up. Bad engineering - product that kinda works shit but depending on niche it can still be good enough to be profitable Bad marketing/client acquisition - most cases bankruptcy, very small amount of things "sell itself", unless you get luck. Bad vision - well, if rest is fine you either pivot to something else and deliver or bankrupt Bad communication/managing - inefficiencies at every way that can and will hamper everyone else.

nonrandomstring 4y ago

The acceptance of others in our team called "society", who assume as a matter of human dignity that we each "add" something, is how we all get by and live. We're all nice people, terrified of growing old and alone, being left out out in the cold and hungry. We're all part of the same team, under the same shit system that makes us feel safer by devaluing others.

rramadass 4y ago
Damn; Don't rip apart the facade like that!

mrtksn 4y ago

I actually don't like that kind of articles at all precisely because I tend to find things from myself and the authors often do very bad job in analysing these behaviours because the articles are one sided "hit pieces" that essentially promote a narrative or a worldview. All the same behaviours can be written in a self improvement post on LinkedIn or something or a successful person might try to attribute the success to these behaviours. In its core its all the same, at best people trying to explain things they don't understand using broken mental models and at worst people trying to explain their failure through their virtues(I could have been great but I'm too good of a person to act in that way). IMHO all these behaviours have different roots and dynamics and plays little role in the actual results(being successful or overrated).

rramadass 4y ago
Good nuanced view point!

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

I have known many folks like this. I have found they don't really last long, in the evironments in which I worked. I've definitely not been one, but I have been in ultra-high-performing environments, in a Japanese company (where they watch everything), so it became habit. Even so, I often feel like I was the dumbest kid in the room, because I was around some damn smart people. But I do find that making a negative posting, is a great way to get "engagement," and it's fairly common. There's lots of "Y'all are doing it wrong" posts, out there, compared to "This is why I think what I do, works well" posts. Basically, we reward negativity.

toast0 4y ago

You could probably say this about my last year or so at my previous job, but I didn't really use these strategies. I just had a plan to leave without leaving a gap, so I intentionally allowed my ongoijg work to be taken over, stopped picking up new things, and made sure to finish up the loose ends. I also had some time for leadership and mentoring, but I think that was more real than the type of leadership in the article; I did build a working prototype and provided real code review help and meeting support (which isn't very technical, but can be really helpful for a junior employee to keep a project moving). At the end, people expressed to me that they thought it would be hard for them after I left, but it really wasn't. Also, I'd have to say, if you're at a small company, being the person who sets up corporate/production accounts gets you in as an important person for new employees and really helps with being overrated, because everyone has interacted with you.

ilyt 4y ago

...how many people in general you know that tell other their flaws and "crimes" out of blue ? It's just not the thing people do, and I don't think many do that with premeditation too, by mix of impostor complex and trying to look busy for the boss