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> It'll be useable for passive and biometric sensing applications, including but not limited to passive localization and identification of people without phones

> It'll be useable for passive and biometric sensing applications, including but not limited to passive localization and identification of people without phones. What? How? Why are all these tinfoil hat conspiracies turning into reality ... like your TV or alarm clock spying on you.

mynameisvlad 4y ago
https://arxiv.org/pdf/2207.04859.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2207.04859.pdf 802.11bf is a thing. It doesn’t seem completely out of the picture for such a technology to be abused once it is implemented.
huijzer 4y ago
There are already production systems like the WiZ lights which use wifi for person detection (https://www.signify.com/global/our-company/news/press-releases/2022/20220916-signify-delivers-new-way-to-automate-your-lights-using-wi-fi-sensing-technology https://www.signify.com/global/our-company/news/press-releas...).
rocqua 4y ago
In short, your body affects the signal. And through MIMO there are multiple simultaneous signals being sent between different antennas on wifi-devices. With just one signal, wifi sensing doesn't tell you much. You sort-off have to look at signal loss and guess if it is lower because the signal is passing through you. With multiple signals, not only do you get multiple data points on signal loss, you also get a phase difference between the signals (i.e. a signal that passed through you is delayed a bit compared to signal that didn't pass through you). By integrating that knowledge from various signals (or rather 'channels') and probably doing a whole lot of other smart stuff, potentially some training / fingerprinting (i.e. if they are at position X, then the signals do Y, for many different positions), you can get location data.
transpute 4y ago
This is scheduled for 2024 via IEEE 802.11bf in Wi-Fi 7 Sensing, it's passive radar that passes through the walls of homes and business, e.g. neighbors or adversaries can identify humans, activity, typing, combination locks, etc. Anything involving motion which causes Doppler shift. Hundreds of papers have been published over the past decade and it can be done with hardware that costs less than $20. Defenses are either cat&mouse electronic warfare or shielding the walls/floor/roof of some rooms (e.g. research labs in business, industrial systems, home offices, bedrooms) with materials like aluminum radiant barrier or expensive drywall (e.g. QuietRock) designed for RF shielding of SCIFs. Prior threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31561338#31563572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31561338#31563572

mynameisvlad 4y ago

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2207.04859.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/2207.04859.pdf 802.11bf is a thing. It doesn’t seem completely out of the picture for such a technology to be abused once it is implemented.

huijzer 4y ago

There are already production systems like the WiZ lights which use wifi for person detection (https://www.signify.com/global/our-company/news/press-releases/2022/20220916-signify-delivers-new-way-to-automate-your-lights-using-wi-fi-sensing-technology https://www.signify.com/global/our-company/news/press-releas...).

rocqua 4y ago

In short, your body affects the signal. And through MIMO there are multiple simultaneous signals being sent between different antennas on wifi-devices. With just one signal, wifi sensing doesn't tell you much. You sort-off have to look at signal loss and guess if it is lower because the signal is passing through you. With multiple signals, not only do you get multiple data points on signal loss, you also get a phase difference between the signals (i.e. a signal that passed through you is delayed a bit compared to signal that didn't pass through you). By integrating that knowledge from various signals (or rather 'channels') and probably doing a whole lot of other smart stuff, potentially some training / fingerprinting (i.e. if they are at position X, then the signals do Y, for many different positions), you can get location data.

transpute 4y ago

This is scheduled for 2024 via IEEE 802.11bf in Wi-Fi 7 Sensing, it's passive radar that passes through the walls of homes and business, e.g. neighbors or adversaries can identify humans, activity, typing, combination locks, etc. Anything involving motion which causes Doppler shift. Hundreds of papers have been published over the past decade and it can be done with hardware that costs less than $20. Defenses are either cat&mouse electronic warfare or shielding the walls/floor/roof of some rooms (e.g. research labs in business, industrial systems, home offices, bedrooms) with materials like aluminum radiant barrier or expensive drywall (e.g. QuietRock) designed for RF shielding of SCIFs. Prior threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31561338#31563572 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31561338#31563572