5 ms·

Sodium ion is a better fit for houses and grid storage than vehicles or consumer electronics.

by throwawaymaths 4y ago

fnordpiglet 4y ago
Presumably you say that due to energy density. However it discusses that in the article. You’re invited to read.
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  Yes, they are comparing currently available lithium tech to unavailable sodium tech even though lithium is hardly fully optimized. It's certainly the case that sodium development benefits from decades of lithium research
tromp 4y ago
Given that sodium ion is claimed to - charge twice as fast as lithium ion - have double the number of charge cycles - cost substantially less - be substantially safer - and more environmentally friendly I think it would be the clear preference for all but the highest performance vehicles. Note that Tesla is also trying to reduce cost in moving to 4680 cells [1]: > the main reason Tesla is using 4680 batteries at the moment is to cut manufacturing costs, rather than any of the other pie-in-the-sky advantages announced on Battery Day a few years back. > A Model Y's 4680 pack, for instance, is US$3,600 cheaper to manufacture than one with 2170 cells, but even then Tesla is only halfway through with the cost reduction potential of the new technology. It has yet to master and scale the dry-coating cathode method which would bring the pack's cost down US$5,500 compared to the 2170 battery. [1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-4680-vs-2170-battery-cell-test-reveals-lower-energy-density-in-the-Texas-made-Model-Y.669162.0.html#:~:text=The%20analysis%20returned%20244%20Wh,vehicles%20here%20in%20the%20US https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-4680-vs-2170-battery-cel....
- quonn 4y ago
  Comparing to LFP the advantages are not that big. It might be cheaper and scale better. Charging speed is now mostly limited by public charger speed and good enough. I expect sodium batteries to have a big impact in cars that cost 25k or less.
  - tromp 4y ago
    Taking out the lithium seems a rather big advantage. Anyway, it's good to have two promising alternatives to Li-ion, both of which are clearly superior for home use, and likely for affordable, smaller range EVs as well.
  - adrian_b 4y ago
    The only significant advantage compared to LFP appears to be the price. However the price advantage is more than enough. After a short googling, it appears that I could buy right now a battery large enough to supply the energy for one day for my house (5 kWh), either as sodium-ion for $650 or as lithium-iron phosphate for $5000 (with very similar specifications for endurance and size). The former I could buy at any time, for the latter I would have to save money for some months to be able to afford it. That is a large enough advantage.
    - quonn 4y ago
      Yeah, I'm talking about car batteries.
    - scythe 4y ago
      That LFP price can't be right. That's $1000/kWh! Batteries have been cheaper than that for at least half a decade. And I'm pretty sure Na-ion (at room temperature) hasn't even hit the market yet! Googling "sodium-ion battery price" just gave me textbooks.
      - adrian_b 4y ago
        I believe that there might be cheaper LFP, that is why I have written "after a short googling". $1000 per kWh was the first price that I have found for a 5 kWh LFP battery and I am lazy now to search for a cheaper one, so this is a real price, even if it is likely not the best price. For a much larger battery, a quick search shows EUR 20000 for 50 kWh, i.e. EUR 400/kWh (though this price is older and now it might have increased). It is normal for the price per kWh to decrease at very large capacities. Also, the fact that LFP were cheaper than this a decade ago is irrelevant, because googling about their price finds that "lithium prices have surged over 700% since the start of 2021, which has led to a big jump in battery pack prices" (written in May 2022). However, Na-ion batteries for solar energy storage have certainly already hit the market, e.g.: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SUNPOK-48V-5kwh-Sodium-ion-battery_1600550915863.html https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SUNPOK-48V-5kwh-Sodiu... EDIT: After an extra search, I have seen an offer for a LFP 5 kWh battery @ $2000, so it looks like the $400/kWh price is available for lower capacities too. Nevertheless, this price is less reliable than the higher prices seen initially, because it is only for some kind of pre-order with unknown delivery time.
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  The assumption there is that lithium is fully optimized. It's not.
  - cogman10 4y ago
    Granted, but lithium has also had a significant amount of additional R&D, particularly in manufacturing. Time will tell if sodium batteries can be competitive, I don't know that it's clear yet.
    - throwawaymaths 4y ago
      Lithium and sodium are similar enough that it's hard to imagine that some of the learnings from lithium haven't translated to sodium.
- jetanoia 4y ago
  Those 5 advantages are very important, but you haven’t mentioned its disadvantages which render the advantages less dramatic. A significant disadvantage is the lower energy density of the sodium battery chemistry. Implications include faster discharge/lower range if the physical dimensions are the same as a lithium battery, or if optimized for more range/power, then it would be a larger and heavier pack vs lithium with the costs that entails. This lower energy density is one of the main reasons it has been considered more suited to stationary application because the extra space and weight is less problematic than in a mobile applicaiton
Zigurd 4y ago
China is an immense market for lower-cost EVs. They also do not have as far to drive as most Americans. This battery tech could be less suitable for the US than China and still have an enormous market.
- thechao 4y ago
  I suspect most Americans don't drive as far as Americans do. I've got a hella commute & it's only 21 miles, each way. Getting to my parents is 55 miles. My in-laws are 205 — but stop for lunch anyways.
  - chris222 4y ago
    It’s not the average drive. The p95 will be a lot higher in North America than China or Europe. Theres also elevation, winters and our obsession with going 70-80mph on highways.
    - akira2501 4y ago
      Obsession? The higher the speed the greater the capacity of the road, and when freight has to travel 2000 miles by road, the 10mph/h difference makes a considerable impact on the time. Isn't it the case that Germany completely removes speed limits for some portions of it's "Autobahns?" What "obsession" drives that decision? There's this assumption that all the negative qualities of road are down to malignable user behavior issues. It's an unusually hostile way to view the problem.
      - tuatoru 4y ago
        > The higher the speed the greater the capacity of the road This is false[1]. Stopping distance increases as the square of speed, and therefore safe following distance also. This and other effects mean that 80 mph is well down on 30 mph. Theoretically capacity should be independent of speed[2], but in practise it seems to decrease at high speeds because most drivers are careful. 1. Plot of safe capacity vs speed: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Safe-road-capacity-for-cars-as-a-function-of-speed_fig1_285199854 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Safe-road-capacity-for-c... 2. https://civilengineering-softstudies.com/57-traffic-capacity-studies-highway-engineering.html https://civilengineering-softstudies.com/57-traffic-capacity...
tuatoru 4y ago
Building (house, commercial building, factory) and grid four- to eight-hour storage (stationary storage) is potentially a much bigger market than vehicle storage, espcially as processes that now use carbon-intensive fuels are replaced.

Sodium ion is a better fit for houses and grid storage than vehicles or consumer electronics.

fnordpiglet 4y ago

Presumably you say that due to energy density. However it discusses that in the article. You’re invited to read.

throwawaymaths 4y ago
Yes, they are comparing currently available lithium tech to unavailable sodium tech even though lithium is hardly fully optimized. It's certainly the case that sodium development benefits from decades of lithium research

tromp 4y ago

Given that sodium ion is claimed to - charge twice as fast as lithium ion - have double the number of charge cycles - cost substantially less - be substantially safer - and more environmentally friendly I think it would be the clear preference for all but the highest performance vehicles. Note that Tesla is also trying to reduce cost in moving to 4680 cells [1]: > the main reason Tesla is using 4680 batteries at the moment is to cut manufacturing costs, rather than any of the other pie-in-the-sky advantages announced on Battery Day a few years back. > A Model Y's 4680 pack, for instance, is US$3,600 cheaper to manufacture than one with 2170 cells, but even then Tesla is only halfway through with the cost reduction potential of the new technology. It has yet to master and scale the dry-coating cathode method which would bring the pack's cost down US$5,500 compared to the 2170 battery. [1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-4680-vs-2170-battery-cell-test-reveals-lower-energy-density-in-the-Texas-made-Model-Y.669162.0.html#:~:text=The%20analysis%20returned%20244%20Wh,vehicles%20here%20in%20the%20US https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-4680-vs-2170-battery-cel....

quonn 4y ago
Comparing to LFP the advantages are not that big. It might be cheaper and scale better. Charging speed is now mostly limited by public charger speed and good enough. I expect sodium batteries to have a big impact in cars that cost 25k or less.
- tromp 4y ago
  Taking out the lithium seems a rather big advantage. Anyway, it's good to have two promising alternatives to Li-ion, both of which are clearly superior for home use, and likely for affordable, smaller range EVs as well.
- adrian_b 4y ago
  The only significant advantage compared to LFP appears to be the price. However the price advantage is more than enough. After a short googling, it appears that I could buy right now a battery large enough to supply the energy for one day for my house (5 kWh), either as sodium-ion for $650 or as lithium-iron phosphate for $5000 (with very similar specifications for endurance and size). The former I could buy at any time, for the latter I would have to save money for some months to be able to afford it. That is a large enough advantage.
  - quonn 4y ago
    Yeah, I'm talking about car batteries.
  - scythe 4y ago
    That LFP price can't be right. That's $1000/kWh! Batteries have been cheaper than that for at least half a decade. And I'm pretty sure Na-ion (at room temperature) hasn't even hit the market yet! Googling "sodium-ion battery price" just gave me textbooks.
    - adrian_b 4y ago
      I believe that there might be cheaper LFP, that is why I have written "after a short googling". $1000 per kWh was the first price that I have found for a 5 kWh LFP battery and I am lazy now to search for a cheaper one, so this is a real price, even if it is likely not the best price. For a much larger battery, a quick search shows EUR 20000 for 50 kWh, i.e. EUR 400/kWh (though this price is older and now it might have increased). It is normal for the price per kWh to decrease at very large capacities. Also, the fact that LFP were cheaper than this a decade ago is irrelevant, because googling about their price finds that "lithium prices have surged over 700% since the start of 2021, which has led to a big jump in battery pack prices" (written in May 2022). However, Na-ion batteries for solar energy storage have certainly already hit the market, e.g.: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SUNPOK-48V-5kwh-Sodium-ion-battery_1600550915863.html https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/SUNPOK-48V-5kwh-Sodiu... EDIT: After an extra search, I have seen an offer for a LFP 5 kWh battery @ $2000, so it looks like the $400/kWh price is available for lower capacities too. Nevertheless, this price is less reliable than the higher prices seen initially, because it is only for some kind of pre-order with unknown delivery time.
throwawaymaths 4y ago
The assumption there is that lithium is fully optimized. It's not.
- cogman10 4y ago
  Granted, but lithium has also had a significant amount of additional R&D, particularly in manufacturing. Time will tell if sodium batteries can be competitive, I don't know that it's clear yet.
  - throwawaymaths 4y ago
    Lithium and sodium are similar enough that it's hard to imagine that some of the learnings from lithium haven't translated to sodium.
jetanoia 4y ago
Those 5 advantages are very important, but you haven’t mentioned its disadvantages which render the advantages less dramatic. A significant disadvantage is the lower energy density of the sodium battery chemistry. Implications include faster discharge/lower range if the physical dimensions are the same as a lithium battery, or if optimized for more range/power, then it would be a larger and heavier pack vs lithium with the costs that entails. This lower energy density is one of the main reasons it has been considered more suited to stationary application because the extra space and weight is less problematic than in a mobile applicaiton

Zigurd 4y ago

China is an immense market for lower-cost EVs. They also do not have as far to drive as most Americans. This battery tech could be less suitable for the US than China and still have an enormous market.

thechao 4y ago
I suspect most Americans don't drive as far as Americans do. I've got a hella commute & it's only 21 miles, each way. Getting to my parents is 55 miles. My in-laws are 205 — but stop for lunch anyways.
- chris222 4y ago
  It’s not the average drive. The p95 will be a lot higher in North America than China or Europe. Theres also elevation, winters and our obsession with going 70-80mph on highways.
  - akira2501 4y ago
    Obsession? The higher the speed the greater the capacity of the road, and when freight has to travel 2000 miles by road, the 10mph/h difference makes a considerable impact on the time. Isn't it the case that Germany completely removes speed limits for some portions of it's "Autobahns?" What "obsession" drives that decision? There's this assumption that all the negative qualities of road are down to malignable user behavior issues. It's an unusually hostile way to view the problem.
    - tuatoru 4y ago
      > The higher the speed the greater the capacity of the road This is false[1]. Stopping distance increases as the square of speed, and therefore safe following distance also. This and other effects mean that 80 mph is well down on 30 mph. Theoretically capacity should be independent of speed[2], but in practise it seems to decrease at high speeds because most drivers are careful. 1. Plot of safe capacity vs speed: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Safe-road-capacity-for-cars-as-a-function-of-speed_fig1_285199854 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Safe-road-capacity-for-c... 2. https://civilengineering-softstudies.com/57-traffic-capacity-studies-highway-engineering.html https://civilengineering-softstudies.com/57-traffic-capacity...

tuatoru 4y ago

Building (house, commercial building, factory) and grid four- to eight-hour storage (stationary storage) is potentially a much bigger market than vehicle storage, espcially as processes that now use carbon-intensive fuels are replaced.