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> As was said here, our restrictions on Chinese companies are nothing compared to their restrictions on ours. This is something that is widely believed in the

> As was said here, our restrictions on Chinese companies are nothing compared to their restrictions on ours. This is something that is widely believed in the US, but which is not actually true. American companies have very large market shares in many sectors of the Chinese economy. Chinese companies are not active in the US market on any comparable level. China used to have many more restrictions on market entry, but that was during a time in which investment was almost entirely in one direction (into China). Those restrictions were meant to prevent foreign companies from completely supplanting Chinese companies, which were technologically far behind and incapable of competing with foreign giants like Volkswagen. The deal was that foreign companies got to exploit cheap labor in China and gain a dominant position in China's growing market, and in exchange, they took on local joint-venture partners, to which they transferred some amount of technology. As China has developed, those restrictions have been dropped from most sectors. > As has been said here, what's wrong with deciding who your friends are and aren't? There's a very big difference between not "being friends" and implementing broad sanctions intended to bankrupt another country's entire high-tech sector. The US is attempting to prevent any company anywhere in the world from doing business with any major Chinese tech company. This is really an unprecedented level of economic warfare, at least in the last several decades. I don't think many Americans are aware of how far their government has gone here.

galdosdi 4y ago
What happens if I search for "Tiannanmen Square" on google.com while I'm inside the PRC territory, then? Oh, nothing comes up? Why?
lordfrito 4y ago
I agree, the sanctions aren't helping the Chinese tech economy. And I also agree that economic warfare has escalated recently. Battle lines have been being drawn for the last decade or so, and now pieces are moving around on the chess board (not just US and China, Russia Ukraine etc) As to how much beyond "not being friends" this is, I'm not sure that protecting the Chinese tech sector is anyone's responsibility but China's. As you said, this is geopolitics. It's not like China is looking out for US or EU or anyone else's interests. Widescale IP theft certainly isn't helping the US tech economy. If US and China were allies I'm sure more would be done to find a mutually agreeable solution, but it's pretty clear at this point that US and Chinese geopolitical interests are not aligned. Having it's IP stolen is the US's problem to solve. They're solving it in part by refusing (at a state level) to do business with parts of the Chinese tech sector. Considering how long its taken the US to respond, it's clear to me time was being taken to solve this diplomatically, and that patience has run out. It's not like the CCP hasn't had time to change their bad behavior and reach a compromise solution. Having something stolen is a problem for the victim. But the victims response may be a problem for the thief. This is simply a long overdue consequence for systemic bad behavior. This situation is regrettable for both parties. But resorting to "US bad" and "China victim" here is a gross simplification of the situation.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  > This situation is regrettable for both parties. But resorting to "US bad" and "China victim" here is a gross simplification of the situation. It's clear which side is the aggressor here. The Chinese government doesn't want a tech war or a trade war, because every year that China can stably develop its economy plays in its favor. The US sees the same situation in exactly the opposite way: every year that China develops economically lessens American dominance. > Widescale IP theft certainly isn't helping the US tech economy. You're vastly overstating the importance of IP theft. This is a minor annoyance in the US-China relationship now. China used to have weak IP protections, like most developing countries, but now it has much stricter IP enforcement. If this were just a question of reducing IP theft, China and the US would have little difficulty negotiating a deal. The issue is much deeper: American anxiety about being displaced as the world's top power.
  - lordfrito 4y ago
    I don't understand how you can complain about unfair economic warfare being waged by the west, while at the same time downplay the systemic theft of western IP to build the Chinese economy. One is "economic warfare" and the other is a "minor annoyance"? Guess it depends on whose side you're on? As for "American anxiety about being displaced as the world's top power". It's no secret that China wants to replace the western/liberal rules based system of international order with one of their own design. Whether or not they will succeed in doing this one thing is certain: it wont happen without major conflicts along the way, and will likely require a world war. The system put in place after WWII has served the world well enough, it's given the world relative peace and prosperity, and helped the great powers avoid major conflicts for a good 75 years. In many ways there's never been a better time to be alive. It seems China seeks to return to pre-WWII conditions, where great powers have the opportunity to pursue their ambitions in absence of any group uniting to keep them in check. This will inevitably lead to rising tensions and conflict between overlapping spheres of influence. If this isn't a recipe for war, I don't know what is. There is a period of conflict that is coming (and in some ways is already here). Russia invaded Ukraine shortly after announcing the Russian-China friendship was was "without limits". Russia wants to be free to pursue it's Imperial goals in eastern Europe, and China is willing to look the other way as they have their own designs on the pan-Asia geopolitical sphere. In many ways the invasion of Ukraine was a shot across the bow to the current world order, announcing that some power blocks are done playing by the current set of rules, and signaling to everyone that the period of relative stability may be over. We've moved from the "post WW-II" phase of history to the "pre WW-III" phase. That fact alone is definitely anxiety producing.

galdosdi 4y ago

What happens if I search for "Tiannanmen Square" on google.com while I'm inside the PRC territory, then? Oh, nothing comes up? Why?

lordfrito 4y ago

I agree, the sanctions aren't helping the Chinese tech economy. And I also agree that economic warfare has escalated recently. Battle lines have been being drawn for the last decade or so, and now pieces are moving around on the chess board (not just US and China, Russia Ukraine etc) As to how much beyond "not being friends" this is, I'm not sure that protecting the Chinese tech sector is anyone's responsibility but China's. As you said, this is geopolitics. It's not like China is looking out for US or EU or anyone else's interests. Widescale IP theft certainly isn't helping the US tech economy. If US and China were allies I'm sure more would be done to find a mutually agreeable solution, but it's pretty clear at this point that US and Chinese geopolitical interests are not aligned. Having it's IP stolen is the US's problem to solve. They're solving it in part by refusing (at a state level) to do business with parts of the Chinese tech sector. Considering how long its taken the US to respond, it's clear to me time was being taken to solve this diplomatically, and that patience has run out. It's not like the CCP hasn't had time to change their bad behavior and reach a compromise solution. Having something stolen is a problem for the victim. But the victims response may be a problem for the thief. This is simply a long overdue consequence for systemic bad behavior. This situation is regrettable for both parties. But resorting to "US bad" and "China victim" here is a gross simplification of the situation.

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
> This situation is regrettable for both parties. But resorting to "US bad" and "China victim" here is a gross simplification of the situation. It's clear which side is the aggressor here. The Chinese government doesn't want a tech war or a trade war, because every year that China can stably develop its economy plays in its favor. The US sees the same situation in exactly the opposite way: every year that China develops economically lessens American dominance. > Widescale IP theft certainly isn't helping the US tech economy. You're vastly overstating the importance of IP theft. This is a minor annoyance in the US-China relationship now. China used to have weak IP protections, like most developing countries, but now it has much stricter IP enforcement. If this were just a question of reducing IP theft, China and the US would have little difficulty negotiating a deal. The issue is much deeper: American anxiety about being displaced as the world's top power.
- lordfrito 4y ago
  I don't understand how you can complain about unfair economic warfare being waged by the west, while at the same time downplay the systemic theft of western IP to build the Chinese economy. One is "economic warfare" and the other is a "minor annoyance"? Guess it depends on whose side you're on? As for "American anxiety about being displaced as the world's top power". It's no secret that China wants to replace the western/liberal rules based system of international order with one of their own design. Whether or not they will succeed in doing this one thing is certain: it wont happen without major conflicts along the way, and will likely require a world war. The system put in place after WWII has served the world well enough, it's given the world relative peace and prosperity, and helped the great powers avoid major conflicts for a good 75 years. In many ways there's never been a better time to be alive. It seems China seeks to return to pre-WWII conditions, where great powers have the opportunity to pursue their ambitions in absence of any group uniting to keep them in check. This will inevitably lead to rising tensions and conflict between overlapping spheres of influence. If this isn't a recipe for war, I don't know what is. There is a period of conflict that is coming (and in some ways is already here). Russia invaded Ukraine shortly after announcing the Russian-China friendship was was "without limits". Russia wants to be free to pursue it's Imperial goals in eastern Europe, and China is willing to look the other way as they have their own designs on the pan-Asia geopolitical sphere. In many ways the invasion of Ukraine was a shot across the bow to the current world order, announcing that some power blocks are done playing by the current set of rules, and signaling to everyone that the period of relative stability may be over. We've moved from the "post WW-II" phase of history to the "pre WW-III" phase. That fact alone is definitely anxiety producing.