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> Americans should consider if they really want to turn their relationship with the world's largest economy into one that is purely hostile. The relationship i

> Americans should consider if they really want to turn their relationship with the world's largest economy into one that is purely hostile. The relationship is far from "purely hostile". We're giant trading partners. The relationship is mutually beneficial. As was said here, our restrictions on Chinese companies are nothing compared to their restrictions on ours. And they've built their economy using so much stolen IP that's it's hard to believe this wasn't CCP policy coming from the top. [1] [2] It's also not hard to imagine CCP hackers using homegrown telecommunications equipment as part of this IP "procurement" process. Personally I think a move like this is long overdue. As has been said here, what's wrong with deciding who your friends are and aren't? We're trading partners, that doesn't necessarily make us allies. Yes this is geopolitical, and if geopolitical issues aren't issues of national security, I don't know what is. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5-companies-say-china-stole-their-ip-within-the-last-year-cnbc.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5-companies-say-china-s... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_property_theft_by_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_intellectual_pr...

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
> As was said here, our restrictions on Chinese companies are nothing compared to their restrictions on ours. This is something that is widely believed in the US, but which is not actually true. American companies have very large market shares in many sectors of the Chinese economy. Chinese companies are not active in the US market on any comparable level. China used to have many more restrictions on market entry, but that was during a time in which investment was almost entirely in one direction (into China). Those restrictions were meant to prevent foreign companies from completely supplanting Chinese companies, which were technologically far behind and incapable of competing with foreign giants like Volkswagen. The deal was that foreign companies got to exploit cheap labor in China and gain a dominant position in China's growing market, and in exchange, they took on local joint-venture partners, to which they transferred some amount of technology. As China has developed, those restrictions have been dropped from most sectors. > As has been said here, what's wrong with deciding who your friends are and aren't? There's a very big difference between not "being friends" and implementing broad sanctions intended to bankrupt another country's entire high-tech sector. The US is attempting to prevent any company anywhere in the world from doing business with any major Chinese tech company. This is really an unprecedented level of economic warfare, at least in the last several decades. I don't think many Americans are aware of how far their government has gone here.
- galdosdi 4y ago
  What happens if I search for "Tiannanmen Square" on google.com while I'm inside the PRC territory, then? Oh, nothing comes up? Why?
- lordfrito 4y ago
  I agree, the sanctions aren't helping the Chinese tech economy. And I also agree that economic warfare has escalated recently. Battle lines have been being drawn for the last decade or so, and now pieces are moving around on the chess board (not just US and China, Russia Ukraine etc) As to how much beyond "not being friends" this is, I'm not sure that protecting the Chinese tech sector is anyone's responsibility but China's. As you said, this is geopolitics. It's not like China is looking out for US or EU or anyone else's interests. Widescale IP theft certainly isn't helping the US tech economy. If US and China were allies I'm sure more would be done to find a mutually agreeable solution, but it's pretty clear at this point that US and Chinese geopolitical interests are not aligned. Having it's IP stolen is the US's problem to solve. They're solving it in part by refusing (at a state level) to do business with parts of the Chinese tech sector. Considering how long its taken the US to respond, it's clear to me time was being taken to solve this diplomatically, and that patience has run out. It's not like the CCP hasn't had time to change their bad behavior and reach a compromise solution. Having something stolen is a problem for the victim. But the victims response may be a problem for the thief. This is simply a long overdue consequence for systemic bad behavior. This situation is regrettable for both parties. But resorting to "US bad" and "China victim" here is a gross simplification of the situation.
  - DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
    > This situation is regrettable for both parties. But resorting to "US bad" and "China victim" here is a gross simplification of the situation. It's clear which side is the aggressor here. The Chinese government doesn't want a tech war or a trade war, because every year that China can stably develop its economy plays in its favor. The US sees the same situation in exactly the opposite way: every year that China develops economically lessens American dominance. > Widescale IP theft certainly isn't helping the US tech economy. You're vastly overstating the importance of IP theft. This is a minor annoyance in the US-China relationship now. China used to have weak IP protections, like most developing countries, but now it has much stricter IP enforcement. If this were just a question of reducing IP theft, China and the US would have little difficulty negotiating a deal. The issue is much deeper: American anxiety about being displaced as the world's top power.

DiogenesKynikos 4y ago

> As was said here, our restrictions on Chinese companies are nothing compared to their restrictions on ours. This is something that is widely believed in the US, but which is not actually true. American companies have very large market shares in many sectors of the Chinese economy. Chinese companies are not active in the US market on any comparable level. China used to have many more restrictions on market entry, but that was during a time in which investment was almost entirely in one direction (into China). Those restrictions were meant to prevent foreign companies from completely supplanting Chinese companies, which were technologically far behind and incapable of competing with foreign giants like Volkswagen. The deal was that foreign companies got to exploit cheap labor in China and gain a dominant position in China's growing market, and in exchange, they took on local joint-venture partners, to which they transferred some amount of technology. As China has developed, those restrictions have been dropped from most sectors. > As has been said here, what's wrong with deciding who your friends are and aren't? There's a very big difference between not "being friends" and implementing broad sanctions intended to bankrupt another country's entire high-tech sector. The US is attempting to prevent any company anywhere in the world from doing business with any major Chinese tech company. This is really an unprecedented level of economic warfare, at least in the last several decades. I don't think many Americans are aware of how far their government has gone here.

galdosdi 4y ago
What happens if I search for "Tiannanmen Square" on google.com while I'm inside the PRC territory, then? Oh, nothing comes up? Why?
lordfrito 4y ago
I agree, the sanctions aren't helping the Chinese tech economy. And I also agree that economic warfare has escalated recently. Battle lines have been being drawn for the last decade or so, and now pieces are moving around on the chess board (not just US and China, Russia Ukraine etc) As to how much beyond "not being friends" this is, I'm not sure that protecting the Chinese tech sector is anyone's responsibility but China's. As you said, this is geopolitics. It's not like China is looking out for US or EU or anyone else's interests. Widescale IP theft certainly isn't helping the US tech economy. If US and China were allies I'm sure more would be done to find a mutually agreeable solution, but it's pretty clear at this point that US and Chinese geopolitical interests are not aligned. Having it's IP stolen is the US's problem to solve. They're solving it in part by refusing (at a state level) to do business with parts of the Chinese tech sector. Considering how long its taken the US to respond, it's clear to me time was being taken to solve this diplomatically, and that patience has run out. It's not like the CCP hasn't had time to change their bad behavior and reach a compromise solution. Having something stolen is a problem for the victim. But the victims response may be a problem for the thief. This is simply a long overdue consequence for systemic bad behavior. This situation is regrettable for both parties. But resorting to "US bad" and "China victim" here is a gross simplification of the situation.
- DiogenesKynikos 4y ago
  > This situation is regrettable for both parties. But resorting to "US bad" and "China victim" here is a gross simplification of the situation. It's clear which side is the aggressor here. The Chinese government doesn't want a tech war or a trade war, because every year that China can stably develop its economy plays in its favor. The US sees the same situation in exactly the opposite way: every year that China develops economically lessens American dominance. > Widescale IP theft certainly isn't helping the US tech economy. You're vastly overstating the importance of IP theft. This is a minor annoyance in the US-China relationship now. China used to have weak IP protections, like most developing countries, but now it has much stricter IP enforcement. If this were just a question of reducing IP theft, China and the US would have little difficulty negotiating a deal. The issue is much deeper: American anxiety about being displaced as the world's top power.