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Guido van Rossum: Python and the Future of Programming – Lex Fridman Podcast

90 points by Steven-Clarke 4y ago

cercatrova 4y ago
Would be interesting to see what he'd say about Nim, which is Python-like but compiled rather than interpreted and has a great static type system.
Steven-Clarke 4y ago
Guido van Rossum is the creator of Python programming language.
- skullone 4y ago
  I think that's a pretty established fact.
MuffinFlavored 4y ago
anybody got a tl;dw?
- yakubin 4y ago
  I’ve watched half of it and there was nothing insightful, to be honest.
- timonoko 4y ago
  "I am not interested in these academic issues. I am just a mechanic making a tool." -- I remember he said this already 25 years go.
- signaru 4y ago
  I'd normally just listen to the podcast version, while doing something else. I finished through Lex's interview with John Carmack in several installments.
- ivansavz 4y ago
  Some nice historical context for many of the recent developments (e.g. why py3.11 is 30% faster), and other general topics (e.g. why certain languages denote variables using dollar signs). You can look at the topic-shortcuts on the video timeline to see if any of these topics are of interest to you.
bmitc 4y ago
Does Python or van Rossum really have anything interesting to say on the future of programming? Python has libraries and lots of users and hype, and those are really its only outstanding "features". Python really does nothing interesting when I think of pushing the boundaries of programming.
- williamstein 4y ago
  And yet it is one of the top 10 most popular languages. There might be something to learn from the discipline and balance of not pushing the boundaries of programming too hard?
  - bmitc 4y ago
    I don't think that conclusion follows. Yes, it's popular. No, Python is not disciplined nor balanced. Popularity is really more about social dynamics than anything.
    - camdenreslink 4y ago
      I don’t know about social dynamics unless you mean most programs in the world aren’t written by senior software engineers. Python is easy to understand to write a script or small web service. Scala or Haskell can never be the most popular for that exact reason.
- doix 4y ago
  It's worth pointing out that Python is 30ish years old at this point. It's "outstanding features" were creating a syntax that a lot of people can quickly grok (not just programmers) and the way they allowed for extensions to be written in C. I believe it also popularized the concept of "there should be one obvious way of doing things", in stark contrast with Perl; "there's more than one way to skin a cat". It's easy to look at this now and say that it's nothing interesting, because it already pushed the boundaries.
  - tcmb 4y ago
nnoitra 4y ago
revskill 4y ago
Yes, due to the "there is only one obvious way to do things", all Python programmers i know in my country don't know anything about function programming (they use global variables and mutation everywhere), no interface design, the code is almost unreadable (lenghthly mutated code everywhere), inheritance everywhere (there's no way to track back the parent call without debugging), no need for unit test, don't even say about Typing,... I don't blame Python for such issues, i know it's human error. But why no such issues happen in other languages ? More beginners into programming is a good thing. But the worst things happen when they don't know a better way to do things. Because "There's only one Python way to do things". That's the reason i avoid Python at all cost to teach programming to newscomers.
- roflyear 4y ago
  Of course you have these issues in other languages lol.
  - revskill 4y ago
    No, i've not seen such issues in other languages. Because in other languages, there's always better way to do things !
    - isitmadeofglass 4y ago
      I have never seen a blue whale yet I know they exist because others have seen them. You obviously haven’t looked through code bases in other languages if you never seen these issues outside of python. Personally I have observed them in C, C++, Java, Haskell, R, Python, PHP, JavaScript , Matlab, Maple, Mathematica, Rust, heck even in lab view. And the same type of problems even translate to poorly developed excel sheets. The only plausible explanation for you never having seen any such issues outside of python is that you have never looked.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      Homie, I've seen it in JavaScript, C#, C, Haskell... You can create dumb code in any language.
clarents 4y ago
I was surprised to hear that he uses GitHub Copilot. I'd assumed that with his understanding of the language that it would be easier/faster to just type what he wanted, but he said that 1) he's not a very good typist and so it can safe him some time and 2) Copilot can help fill in code for concepts that he's learned but would need to look up as a refresher.

90 points by Steven-Clarke 4y ago

Would be interesting to see what he'd say about Nim, which is Python-like but compiled rather than interpreted and has a great static type system.

Steven-Clarke 4y ago

Guido van Rossum is the creator of Python programming language.

skullone 4y ago
I think that's a pretty established fact.

MuffinFlavored 4y ago

anybody got a tl;dw?

yakubin 4y ago
I’ve watched half of it and there was nothing insightful, to be honest.
timonoko 4y ago
"I am not interested in these academic issues. I am just a mechanic making a tool." -- I remember he said this already 25 years go.
signaru 4y ago
I'd normally just listen to the podcast version, while doing something else. I finished through Lex's interview with John Carmack in several installments.
ivansavz 4y ago
Some nice historical context for many of the recent developments (e.g. why py3.11 is 30% faster), and other general topics (e.g. why certain languages denote variables using dollar signs). You can look at the topic-shortcuts on the video timeline to see if any of these topics are of interest to you.

bmitc 4y ago

Does Python or van Rossum really have anything interesting to say on the future of programming? Python has libraries and lots of users and hype, and those are really its only outstanding "features". Python really does nothing interesting when I think of pushing the boundaries of programming.

williamstein 4y ago
And yet it is one of the top 10 most popular languages. There might be something to learn from the discipline and balance of not pushing the boundaries of programming too hard?
- bmitc 4y ago
  I don't think that conclusion follows. Yes, it's popular. No, Python is not disciplined nor balanced. Popularity is really more about social dynamics than anything.
  - camdenreslink 4y ago
    I don’t know about social dynamics unless you mean most programs in the world aren’t written by senior software engineers. Python is easy to understand to write a script or small web service. Scala or Haskell can never be the most popular for that exact reason.
doix 4y ago
It's worth pointing out that Python is 30ish years old at this point. It's "outstanding features" were creating a syntax that a lot of people can quickly grok (not just programmers) and the way they allowed for extensions to be written in C. I believe it also popularized the concept of "there should be one obvious way of doing things", in stark contrast with Perl; "there's more than one way to skin a cat". It's easy to look at this now and say that it's nothing interesting, because it already pushed the boundaries.
- tcmb 4y ago

nnoitra 4y ago

revskill 4y ago

Yes, due to the "there is only one obvious way to do things", all Python programmers i know in my country don't know anything about function programming (they use global variables and mutation everywhere), no interface design, the code is almost unreadable (lenghthly mutated code everywhere), inheritance everywhere (there's no way to track back the parent call without debugging), no need for unit test, don't even say about Typing,... I don't blame Python for such issues, i know it's human error. But why no such issues happen in other languages ? More beginners into programming is a good thing. But the worst things happen when they don't know a better way to do things. Because "There's only one Python way to do things". That's the reason i avoid Python at all cost to teach programming to newscomers.

roflyear 4y ago
Of course you have these issues in other languages lol.
- revskill 4y ago
  No, i've not seen such issues in other languages. Because in other languages, there's always better way to do things !
  - isitmadeofglass 4y ago
    I have never seen a blue whale yet I know they exist because others have seen them. You obviously haven’t looked through code bases in other languages if you never seen these issues outside of python. Personally I have observed them in C, C++, Java, Haskell, R, Python, PHP, JavaScript , Matlab, Maple, Mathematica, Rust, heck even in lab view. And the same type of problems even translate to poorly developed excel sheets. The only plausible explanation for you never having seen any such issues outside of python is that you have never looked.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Homie, I've seen it in JavaScript, C#, C, Haskell... You can create dumb code in any language.

clarents 4y ago

I was surprised to hear that he uses GitHub Copilot. I'd assumed that with his understanding of the language that it would be easier/faster to just type what he wanted, but he said that 1) he's not a very good typist and so it can safe him some time and 2) Copilot can help fill in code for concepts that he's learned but would need to look up as a refresher.