12 ms·

> the £7,695 tiny electric car that has no boot, a 28mph top speed and range of just 46 miles I live in Paris and do everything with an e-bike that also has no

by bambax 4y ago

> the £7,695 tiny electric car that has no boot, a 28mph top speed and range of just 46 miles I live in Paris and do everything with an e-bike that also has no boot, no passenger seat, a top speed of ~20mph, a range of ~30 miles... but cost me around €1,200 (since I built it myself). It now has over 7,500 miles. In day trafic it's probably much faster than the Ami, and it can also be put on a train. Couldn't be happier.

sigitprayitno 4y ago
rwmj 4y ago
That's nice, but the roads around here are not safe for bicycles of any sort (think pot-holed winding country lanes with lorries speeding at above the 40 mph limit). Until the government gets serious about lowering and enforcing speed limits and introducing cycling infrastructure, an electric car is necessary.
- iso1631 4y ago
  Do you think a plastic vehicle will fare any better in a collision with the average American SUV or truck?
  - rwmj 4y ago
    This particular vehicle has no safety features, but an EV with some safety features is likely safer as well as being more visible. I wish there was cycling infrastructure and lower speed limits, but that's not how it is now. I used to own an e-bike here and it wasn't very practical.
  - HNDV 4y ago
    At medium/higher speed collisions? no it wouldn't fare better. But at city street level collision? oh yeah it would fare a huge amount better actually. Not all collisions are the compact this metal box into a smaller cube type of collision. At 30km/h and lower cyclists have a risk that simply does not exist for a vehicle like the ami and other cheap car like vehicles : being driven over. A car can kill a cyclist while driving as low as 1 kilometer per hour if the cyclist fell on the ground and the car is running the cyclist over. You can't "drive over" an ami. Unless you're driving a Monster Truck. As a cyclist I am extremely paranoid about things like blind sides on larger vehicles because it takes very little to kill you. VERY. LITTLE.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    Given that you can kill all the occupants of an American SUV by getting a fat person to take a good run up and kick the bumper hard, I'd say yes. At anything above a walking pace shunt in a typical Yank Tank, your insides are mush.
- eduction 4y ago
  Makes me feel slightly less backward about still using imperial units in the US that you and the article both use mph (I’d have guessed km/h). Is it just a speed thing, or is distance always in miles there? Do people use metric for everything else? (I’ve heard Brits quote their weight loss in stones which makes me feel positively progressive) Update, Wikipedia: “ Most of government, industry and commerce use metric units, but imperial units are officially used to specify journey distances, vehicle speeds and the sizes of returnable milk containers, beer and cider glasses, and fresh milk is often still sold in multiples of pints, with the metric equivalent also marked. Imperial units are also often used to describe body measurements and vehicle fuel economy. In schools, metric units are taught and used as the norm. ” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Ki...
Mistletoe 4y ago
What are the death rates for bicyclists vs small cars like this? I recently considered a motorcycle and the death rates were too appalling for me to go through with it. Having a metal cage around you and windows is too vital for me. Edit: I found this. >The motorcycle fatality rate is over 17 times greater, and bicycle fatality rates are nearly 10 times greater than that for automobiles.
- tobz1000 4y ago
- layer8 4y ago
  The question is how often bikes get into an accident vs. cars, relative to the number of comparable trips made, which is difficult to measure. The above statistics probably only tell you that if you get into an accident that happens to get reported, what is your relative survival rate then. It’s not surprising that bike riders have a lower survival rate when a car is involved. That doesn’t mean that bike riders in general have a lower life expectancy than car drivers.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    An other question is, what does that become when you actually invest in proper bike and pedestrian infrastructure?
  - cycomanic 4y ago
    There are actually studies (e.g. mentioned here https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/cyclists-live-longer-asked-google-weve-got-answer-389628 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/cyclists-live-longer-a...) which show that people who commute by bike live the longest.
  - spacedcowboy 4y ago
    It took being hit by a car three times (two minor collisions, the last one hospitalized me) for me to give up on the e-bike idea. Car drivers (at least in the Bay Area) are not ready for bikes going at speed, IMHO, they just don’t look, or at least, they don’t see. This thing might work out better than the bike because it’s a lot more visible, but I actually doubt there’d be much take-up. As someone else said, a second-hand leaf or similar would probably be better.
HNDV 4y ago
I live near Montpellier in France and I also live with a bicycle as my main method of transportation, but I can understand the appeal of something like the Ami for a lot of people. It takes dedication to be a cyclist during storms.
jfengel 4y ago
As I understand it, cars are increasingly banned in downtown Paris (even glorified electric bikes like this). I haven't been since before pandemic but I really want to see that. It sounds like a great experiment.
- abyssin 4y ago
  They’ve been running that experiment with great success in the Netherlands since the 1970s. It’s great to see, and even better to experience in your everyday life. I love feeling connected to my environment.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    The Netherlands is not a regular country and cannot be used as a template for any other country in the World, except maybe some flat urban area, like Copenhagen, or the Vatican (which has a few hills more than the Netherlands BTW) p.s. Dutch did not like to hear this, but somebody had to say it.
    - Xylakant 4y ago
      I don’t think that Berlin has substantially more mountains in the city than Amsterdam. I live on one of the molehills that pretend to be a mountain and I have 22m of height difference to the river. It’s noticeable but hardly insurmountable.
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        > I don’t think that Berlin has substantially more mountains in the city than Amsterdam Berlin, in fact, is not a country. As I've said cannot be used as a template for any other country in the World, **except maybe some flat urban area** Paris is not the Netherlands, you cannot export the Netherlands ways to Paris. Moreover, there are on average 150,000 street accidents in Berlin every year. Last year (2020), 14,782 people were hurt in road accidents in Berlin - the lowest figure in 30 years, according to police data. (thanks COVID I guess...) In Rome, considered the hell on earth of street rage (69 cars every 100 people, negative record in Europe) ~10.500 people were injured in the same period. Same population, 1.4 times more accidents. Perception is very different from reality.
MontyCarloHall 4y ago
If it’s raining/snowing, or too hot, or too cold, I’d much rather be in an small enclosed car than exposed to the elements on a bike. The Ami has a primitive heater but no air conditioning, but there’s no reason that these limitations are inherent to a vehicle of this size. I imagine an Ami-sized car with creature comforts of a regular vehicle would sell extremely well in cities. Biking is great when the weather is amenable to it. When the weather is not, I'd rather not show up to my destination drenched in sweat, soaked in rain, or freezing my ass off.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > there’s no reason that these limitations are inherent to a vehicle of this size. Of course not, but the manufacturer tried to keep the costs down as much as they could. An Ami with A/C for double the price would be a lot less attractive. Although maybe a reversible heat pump could make the heating kinder on the battery... > I imagine an Ami-sized car with creature comforts of a regular vehicle would sell extremely well in cities. Seems rather doubtful, it would still have to provide limited amenities, but the price would shoot way up. And given the range of the car, the amenities are a lot less problematic: you can not use the car for long.
  - gus_massa 4y ago
    > Although maybe a reversible heat pump could make the heating kinder on the battery... Isn't a normal AC a reversible heat pump?
    - masklinn 4y ago
      A normal AC is a heat pump, but lots are not reversible. Especially in cars, it's a very recent development in some EVs: on an ICE, the ICE provides the heating so a reversible AC is just more complexity for no gain.
- the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
  > If it’s raining/snowing, or too hot, or too cold, I’d much rather be in an small enclosed car than exposed to the elements on a bike. Yes and no. I have a three wheeler cargo bike I use for most of my commuting or city riding and very rarely do I opt for my car, particularly when the weather is bad. The main reason is that since where I live I basically cannot find parking and when the weather is bad, the roads are full of cars. In that case I'm usually quicker and more relaxed just loading the kids into the cargo bike (they have a roof) and I accept the wetness / cold than to try to use my car instead. It just works out much better for me.
up2isomorphism 4y ago
It seems people are never thinking what happens if he is getting old. Good luck when you can still ride a bike when you are 70s and in the snow.
- bambax 4y ago
  If and when I can't ride (which I suspect will be never, since it's an ebike and my parents, whi are both in their nineties, still occasionally ride non-electric bikes), then I will find something else. It's not like the ebike is a huge investment that nails me for life...
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  "It seems people are never thinking what happens if he is getting old" You really think, that we people who do drive bicycles, do not think about cold and rain? We are the first to notice it first hand. So we do think about it, as we have to regulary deal with it. The solution is adequate clothing. But yes, I also own a car as I do not live somewhere with good public transport system. And I do know people who ride a bike in their 70s, but I am aware, that there will likely come a time, when I will be indeed too old for riding in the winter. But chances are, that by then I am also so fragile, that I might be too old for save driving also. Hopefully self driving is ready by then.
- jeffbee 4y ago
  You want some 70 year old guy driving a car in your city in the snow? People outlive their ability to drive a car by 5-10 years. If you build a city that welcomes and requires cars, and discourages biking and walking, you are dooming the elderly to spending the ends of their lives at home.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    70 isn't old.
    - jeffbee 4y ago
      The visual acuity of a 70-year-old is roughly on par with a 20-year-old wearing dark sunglasses at night.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
Good for you. That does not invalidate the point of a mean of transport alternative to big empty cars riding one person each and to bikes, that ride one person each and have no trunk. Bikes are also more dangerous than small slow 4 wheeled vehicles. Because, you know, bikes don't stand on their own, their braking abilities are very limited due to very thin tyres, they have no stop and turn signals, no rearview mirrors, etc etc Cars are expensive because of safety devices and regulations, not because a box of metal with an engine could not be built for a couple of thousands euros. ALSO the subway is much faster than a bike, cost much less and does not interfere with pedestrian walking spaces, I can pay 10 years of public transport with 1,200 euros. Of course bikers of HN will not like it, but cars are the killer app for private transportation, the ICE engine is an accident, it's their form factor that wins. Decades of design have been spent on them. while bikes are still the same old two wheelers now with an electric engine, so more like stripped down mopeds, not so great if you ask the majority of people who simply need to move and don't care about the flex. Please, don't be un parisien. p.s. I'm a biker and a pedestrian, I drive less than 100km a month, only when I have to and don't own a car since 10 years ago. But Ican't stand the attitude of many bikers that think that if they do it, everybody should or could do it. It's simply wrong.
- ginko 4y ago
  >Bikes are also more dangerous than small slow 4 wheeled vehicles. Cars are WAY more dangerous than bicycles.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > Cars are WAY more dangerous than bicycles wrong. cars are more dangerous on average (the concept of average should be banned from any statistical analysis) because they travel many many many more kilometers than the average bike and mostly for very long distances at high speed. But if you notice, I wrote "than slow 4 wheeled cars". Ami is much safer than a bike, especially for the occupants. Example: there are 3.75 million cars in Rome urban area (5 million residents) There were 121 deaths last year caused by car accidents. It's 32 per million vehicles. Bike users deaths caused by street accidents have been 50 in the same year. Meanwhile the number of people brought to ER for either having an accident with an e-bike or and e-scooter have tripled in the past couple of years. Mostly is people falling on their own and hitting their head. Main two reasons: lost balance on the e-scooter, going too fast with their e-bike.
entropicgravity 4y ago
The meek shall inherent the earth.
voidfunc 4y ago
Biking sucks, it is dangerous and uncomfortable in snow, rain, cold, and heat.
clouddrover 4y ago
> In day trafic it's probably much faster than the Ami No way, man. The Ami has flames on the side: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/weird/ha-check-out-citroens-new-customisation-options-ami https://www.topgear.com/car-news/weird/ha-check-out-citroens... And does your e-bike strike fear in the hearts of criminals everywhere? https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/citroen-ami-now-police-car-cute https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/citroen-ami-now-po... I think not.

by bambax 4y ago

sigitprayitno 4y ago

rwmj 4y ago

That's nice, but the roads around here are not safe for bicycles of any sort (think pot-holed winding country lanes with lorries speeding at above the 40 mph limit). Until the government gets serious about lowering and enforcing speed limits and introducing cycling infrastructure, an electric car is necessary.

iso1631 4y ago
Do you think a plastic vehicle will fare any better in a collision with the average American SUV or truck?
- rwmj 4y ago
  This particular vehicle has no safety features, but an EV with some safety features is likely safer as well as being more visible. I wish there was cycling infrastructure and lower speed limits, but that's not how it is now. I used to own an e-bike here and it wasn't very practical.
- HNDV 4y ago
  At medium/higher speed collisions? no it wouldn't fare better. But at city street level collision? oh yeah it would fare a huge amount better actually. Not all collisions are the compact this metal box into a smaller cube type of collision. At 30km/h and lower cyclists have a risk that simply does not exist for a vehicle like the ami and other cheap car like vehicles : being driven over. A car can kill a cyclist while driving as low as 1 kilometer per hour if the cyclist fell on the ground and the car is running the cyclist over. You can't "drive over" an ami. Unless you're driving a Monster Truck. As a cyclist I am extremely paranoid about things like blind sides on larger vehicles because it takes very little to kill you. VERY. LITTLE.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  Given that you can kill all the occupants of an American SUV by getting a fat person to take a good run up and kick the bumper hard, I'd say yes. At anything above a walking pace shunt in a typical Yank Tank, your insides are mush.
eduction 4y ago
Makes me feel slightly less backward about still using imperial units in the US that you and the article both use mph (I’d have guessed km/h). Is it just a speed thing, or is distance always in miles there? Do people use metric for everything else? (I’ve heard Brits quote their weight loss in stones which makes me feel positively progressive) Update, Wikipedia: “ Most of government, industry and commerce use metric units, but imperial units are officially used to specify journey distances, vehicle speeds and the sizes of returnable milk containers, beer and cider glasses, and fresh milk is often still sold in multiples of pints, with the metric equivalent also marked. Imperial units are also often used to describe body measurements and vehicle fuel economy. In schools, metric units are taught and used as the norm. ” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Ki...

Mistletoe 4y ago

What are the death rates for bicyclists vs small cars like this? I recently considered a motorcycle and the death rates were too appalling for me to go through with it. Having a metal cage around you and windows is too vital for me. Edit: I found this. >The motorcycle fatality rate is over 17 times greater, and bicycle fatality rates are nearly 10 times greater than that for automobiles.

tobz1000 4y ago
layer8 4y ago
The question is how often bikes get into an accident vs. cars, relative to the number of comparable trips made, which is difficult to measure. The above statistics probably only tell you that if you get into an accident that happens to get reported, what is your relative survival rate then. It’s not surprising that bike riders have a lower survival rate when a car is involved. That doesn’t mean that bike riders in general have a lower life expectancy than car drivers.
- masklinn 4y ago
  An other question is, what does that become when you actually invest in proper bike and pedestrian infrastructure?
- cycomanic 4y ago
  There are actually studies (e.g. mentioned here https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/cyclists-live-longer-asked-google-weve-got-answer-389628 https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/cyclists-live-longer-a...) which show that people who commute by bike live the longest.
- spacedcowboy 4y ago
  It took being hit by a car three times (two minor collisions, the last one hospitalized me) for me to give up on the e-bike idea. Car drivers (at least in the Bay Area) are not ready for bikes going at speed, IMHO, they just don’t look, or at least, they don’t see. This thing might work out better than the bike because it’s a lot more visible, but I actually doubt there’d be much take-up. As someone else said, a second-hand leaf or similar would probably be better.

HNDV 4y ago

I live near Montpellier in France and I also live with a bicycle as my main method of transportation, but I can understand the appeal of something like the Ami for a lot of people. It takes dedication to be a cyclist during storms.

jfengel 4y ago

As I understand it, cars are increasingly banned in downtown Paris (even glorified electric bikes like this). I haven't been since before pandemic but I really want to see that. It sounds like a great experiment.

abyssin 4y ago
They’ve been running that experiment with great success in the Netherlands since the 1970s. It’s great to see, and even better to experience in your everyday life. I love feeling connected to my environment.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  The Netherlands is not a regular country and cannot be used as a template for any other country in the World, except maybe some flat urban area, like Copenhagen, or the Vatican (which has a few hills more than the Netherlands BTW) p.s. Dutch did not like to hear this, but somebody had to say it.
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    I don’t think that Berlin has substantially more mountains in the city than Amsterdam. I live on one of the molehills that pretend to be a mountain and I have 22m of height difference to the river. It’s noticeable but hardly insurmountable.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      > I don’t think that Berlin has substantially more mountains in the city than Amsterdam Berlin, in fact, is not a country. As I've said cannot be used as a template for any other country in the World, **except maybe some flat urban area** Paris is not the Netherlands, you cannot export the Netherlands ways to Paris. Moreover, there are on average 150,000 street accidents in Berlin every year. Last year (2020), 14,782 people were hurt in road accidents in Berlin - the lowest figure in 30 years, according to police data. (thanks COVID I guess...) In Rome, considered the hell on earth of street rage (69 cars every 100 people, negative record in Europe) ~10.500 people were injured in the same period. Same population, 1.4 times more accidents. Perception is very different from reality.

MontyCarloHall 4y ago

If it’s raining/snowing, or too hot, or too cold, I’d much rather be in an small enclosed car than exposed to the elements on a bike. The Ami has a primitive heater but no air conditioning, but there’s no reason that these limitations are inherent to a vehicle of this size. I imagine an Ami-sized car with creature comforts of a regular vehicle would sell extremely well in cities. Biking is great when the weather is amenable to it. When the weather is not, I'd rather not show up to my destination drenched in sweat, soaked in rain, or freezing my ass off.

masklinn 4y ago
> there’s no reason that these limitations are inherent to a vehicle of this size. Of course not, but the manufacturer tried to keep the costs down as much as they could. An Ami with A/C for double the price would be a lot less attractive. Although maybe a reversible heat pump could make the heating kinder on the battery... > I imagine an Ami-sized car with creature comforts of a regular vehicle would sell extremely well in cities. Seems rather doubtful, it would still have to provide limited amenities, but the price would shoot way up. And given the range of the car, the amenities are a lot less problematic: you can not use the car for long.
- gus_massa 4y ago
  > Although maybe a reversible heat pump could make the heating kinder on the battery... Isn't a normal AC a reversible heat pump?
  - masklinn 4y ago
    A normal AC is a heat pump, but lots are not reversible. Especially in cars, it's a very recent development in some EVs: on an ICE, the ICE provides the heating so a reversible AC is just more complexity for no gain.
the_mitsuhiko 4y ago
> If it’s raining/snowing, or too hot, or too cold, I’d much rather be in an small enclosed car than exposed to the elements on a bike. Yes and no. I have a three wheeler cargo bike I use for most of my commuting or city riding and very rarely do I opt for my car, particularly when the weather is bad. The main reason is that since where I live I basically cannot find parking and when the weather is bad, the roads are full of cars. In that case I'm usually quicker and more relaxed just loading the kids into the cargo bike (they have a roof) and I accept the wetness / cold than to try to use my car instead. It just works out much better for me.

up2isomorphism 4y ago

It seems people are never thinking what happens if he is getting old. Good luck when you can still ride a bike when you are 70s and in the snow.

bambax 4y ago
If and when I can't ride (which I suspect will be never, since it's an ebike and my parents, whi are both in their nineties, still occasionally ride non-electric bikes), then I will find something else. It's not like the ebike is a huge investment that nails me for life...
hutzlibu 4y ago
"It seems people are never thinking what happens if he is getting old" You really think, that we people who do drive bicycles, do not think about cold and rain? We are the first to notice it first hand. So we do think about it, as we have to regulary deal with it. The solution is adequate clothing. But yes, I also own a car as I do not live somewhere with good public transport system. And I do know people who ride a bike in their 70s, but I am aware, that there will likely come a time, when I will be indeed too old for riding in the winter. But chances are, that by then I am also so fragile, that I might be too old for save driving also. Hopefully self driving is ready by then.
jeffbee 4y ago
You want some 70 year old guy driving a car in your city in the snow? People outlive their ability to drive a car by 5-10 years. If you build a city that welcomes and requires cars, and discourages biking and walking, you are dooming the elderly to spending the ends of their lives at home.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  70 isn't old.
  - jeffbee 4y ago
    The visual acuity of a 70-year-old is roughly on par with a 20-year-old wearing dark sunglasses at night.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

Good for you. That does not invalidate the point of a mean of transport alternative to big empty cars riding one person each and to bikes, that ride one person each and have no trunk. Bikes are also more dangerous than small slow 4 wheeled vehicles. Because, you know, bikes don't stand on their own, their braking abilities are very limited due to very thin tyres, they have no stop and turn signals, no rearview mirrors, etc etc Cars are expensive because of safety devices and regulations, not because a box of metal with an engine could not be built for a couple of thousands euros. ALSO the subway is much faster than a bike, cost much less and does not interfere with pedestrian walking spaces, I can pay 10 years of public transport with 1,200 euros. Of course bikers of HN will not like it, but cars are the killer app for private transportation, the ICE engine is an accident, it's their form factor that wins. Decades of design have been spent on them. while bikes are still the same old two wheelers now with an electric engine, so more like stripped down mopeds, not so great if you ask the majority of people who simply need to move and don't care about the flex. Please, don't be un parisien. p.s. I'm a biker and a pedestrian, I drive less than 100km a month, only when I have to and don't own a car since 10 years ago. But Ican't stand the attitude of many bikers that think that if they do it, everybody should or could do it. It's simply wrong.

ginko 4y ago
>Bikes are also more dangerous than small slow 4 wheeled vehicles. Cars are WAY more dangerous than bicycles.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Cars are WAY more dangerous than bicycles wrong. cars are more dangerous on average (the concept of average should be banned from any statistical analysis) because they travel many many many more kilometers than the average bike and mostly for very long distances at high speed. But if you notice, I wrote "than slow 4 wheeled cars". Ami is much safer than a bike, especially for the occupants. Example: there are 3.75 million cars in Rome urban area (5 million residents) There were 121 deaths last year caused by car accidents. It's 32 per million vehicles. Bike users deaths caused by street accidents have been 50 in the same year. Meanwhile the number of people brought to ER for either having an accident with an e-bike or and e-scooter have tripled in the past couple of years. Mostly is people falling on their own and hitting their head. Main two reasons: lost balance on the e-scooter, going too fast with their e-bike.

entropicgravity 4y ago

The meek shall inherent the earth.

voidfunc 4y ago

Biking sucks, it is dangerous and uncomfortable in snow, rain, cold, and heat.

clouddrover 4y ago

> In day trafic it's probably much faster than the Ami No way, man. The Ami has flames on the side: https://www.topgear.com/car-news/weird/ha-check-out-citroens-new-customisation-options-ami https://www.topgear.com/car-news/weird/ha-check-out-citroens... And does your e-bike strike fear in the hearts of criminals everywhere? https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/citroen-ami-now-police-car-cute https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/citroen-ami-now-po... I think not.