28 ms·

The Citroen Ami – tiny electric car with no boot, 28mph top speed, 46 mile range

162 points by rwmj 4y ago

hanche 4y ago
Huh. I owned a Citroen Ami back in the seventies. It was a gas car (two cylinder air cooled engine), much like the 2CV but made to look a bit more like a conventional car. Interesting that they decided to reuse the name.
- mlok 4y ago
  Note : "ami" means "friend" in French. I knew about the old Ami (but young people this car is aimed at do not know about it) but I think this is a welcomed reuse of that name.
- slim 4y ago
  That's the Ami8
agumonkey 4y ago
Seen a few in my area, but not much (unlike the Zoe or Teslas). Always fun to see, since they're small, silent and not fast (safe) and I assume a lot less costly for young owners.
highwaylights 4y ago
Or.. buy a used EV for less and give up none of those things?
rwmj 4y ago
If this was half the price, say £3,500, I'd probably get one. The price seems wildly out of line with what you get. Also I wonder about modding - larger battery, a roof rack and a bright orange paint job to compensate for lack of safety features.
- hadrien01 4y ago
  In France it’s 7800€, but with government subsidies it goes down to 6900€. There are options (including the orange colour you want!), but the only worthwhile one is the Cargo variant (in place of the second seat) for 8200€/7300€. No battery upgrade.
- highwaylights 4y ago
  It would probably cost close to that range just for the battery, but it begs the question who this is for. If your budget is £7k there are plenty of used options around that would involve sacrificing much less than this for about double the range (thinking early Leaf/Zoe/Ion). It’s neat, but it reminds me of the Twizy. Just too many compromises to still make sense.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    "you don't need to have any form of licence to drive one in France" I think that might answer your question. Also, you talk about sacrificing things. Which presumably means you consider the alternative to be a car. But this is much smaller than a car, and might appeal to people who don't own a car and don't want to.
  - andrepd 4y ago
    > Just too many compromises to still make sense. A huge chunk of car journeys are done to move 1 person + limited cargo across less than 30km roundtrip. The sort of journeys that could be served by a e-bike or public transport, but absent infrastructure for both could at least be served by a small car.
  - HNDV 4y ago
    > If your budget is £7k there are plenty of used options around that would involve sacrificing much less than this for about double the range (thinking early Leaf/Zoe/Ion). The Zoe is a 33 000 € car brand new. Cars must start somewhere before a used market show up to cheapen them further. This one will be even cheaper down the road once it appears in the used market. As for who uses it, I know plenty of people who own one to do things like small size deliveries, citroen sells a version of this car that doesn't have a passenger seat for the sake of more cargo capacity. It's a pretty nifty car to have as long as you mostly drive it within the city, where most streets don't allow you to go past 30 kilometer per hour. For city dwellers in Europe, it works plenty fine and better than cars that are too big for some of the parking spots you might have taken with a small one like the ami.
zac23or 4y ago
Its ugly! A key to Tesla's success is that its cars look like cars, not abominations. Many electric car makers seem to hate cars.
- toast0 4y ago
  I think this is ugly and cute at once. Like a first gen Scion xB (although that was boxier). But this is clearly a car to fit a regulatory niche, few will drive this if they have other options, so style isn't really in the budget.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    > few will drive this if they have other options Why not? If you're a city-zen and going to do something in the city too far to go on foot, using an ami is much easier than using a full-size car, unless you have an A-segment car (and even then, the ami is a full meter shorter than your average A-segment, the length of the Ami is the wheelbase of a Picanto or an Aygo). It's not like the 28mph is a big impediment in most city traffic.
- Kukumber 4y ago
  i think it's cute, it's very small, practical for a city life it's not meant to be luxurious, it's meant to be affordable and it's not meant to "look like a car", it's meant to be useful and practical To quote the article: "In France, anyone from the age of 14 can drive one without a licence. You can also hire an Ami on a short-term basis in Paris. For €0.26-a-minute (with a subscription fee of €9.90 per month) you can whizz around the capital's streets. It's probably nicer - and more hygienic - than taking the Metro or a bus"
  - zac23or 4y ago
    > and it's not meant to "look like a car", it's meant to be useful and practical How many "Ugly electric practical and useful electric cars" sell well?
    - 4y ago
zhte415 4y ago
> it has zero airbags. No crash crumple zones. Not a single electronic safety aid. It doesn't even have anti-lock brakes
- rwmj 4y ago
  If I did get one, I'd want it to be painted in day-glo orange.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Exactly. This isn't really a car. It is a fancy electric golf cart with doors.
  - duxup 4y ago
    I like the open nature of a golf cart. I kinda wish I lived in a golf cart community.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      You might be able to turn yours into one, just start driving one! https://www.clubcar.com/en-us/personal/street-legal-vehicles https://www.clubcar.com/en-us/personal/street-legal-vehicles
  - masklinn 4y ago
    I mean that's literally in the base blurb, it's an electric quadricycle.
    - implements 4y ago
      Yeah, it’s effectively an enclosed four-wheel ‘bicycle quality’ type vehicle - and I imagine a huge chunk of the asking price is to cover the 5.5 kWh lithium battery. I’d like one, but not for £8,000 - an electric bakfiet (cargo bike) seems better value for money.
- stefan_ 4y ago
  You are not meant to take it on a highway, either. It's a bit like saying "pedestrians have zero airbags, crush crumple zones are bones" - you are soo close to getting it!
csours 4y ago
The cheapest EVs and the most expensive bicycles overlap in price. Not exactly sure what that means, but it's interesting to me.
arc-in-space 4y ago
I'm very uninformed on this but at that point why not get a electric quad instead?
- HNDV 4y ago
  For the same reason most people are unwilling to go to work with a bicycle even when they live near their work. Quads are fun vehicles in good weather but you don't want to drive one when it rains the beejesus.
phh 4y ago
> And you don't need to have any form of licence to drive one in France! FWIW, that's wrong: only people born before 1985 ~ (i don't know the exact date) don't need any license. People born after that do require a license, which is much much lighter than standard driving license in France, but still requires several hours (I think it takes a whole day?), which I think is equivalent to what actual driving license in some countries.
- coredog64 4y ago
  A French driving license is an ordeal, at least compared to your typical US state.
  - pm3003 4y ago
    This licence you can pass in a day or two, and the theoretical part is often done at school as a way to improve road safety.
- forty 4y ago
  Yes, you need the "Permis AM" if you are born in 1988 or after. This category of cars is still often referred as "license less cars" though.
  - nephanth 4y ago
    The article is still kinda right in the sense that the AM license is only a certification that you got a formation, there in no exam to get it.
10729287 4y ago
Those cars are aimed at rich and posh kids and they represent majority of users here in France as it can be driven from 14.
- themoonisachees 4y ago
  Yeah for that price only people who think having an electric bike is beneath them are going to buy that
Firmwarrior 4y ago
Not to be confused with Peter Gregory's car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_Cars_Tango https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_Cars_Tango
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
bambax 4y ago
> the £7,695 tiny electric car that has no boot, a 28mph top speed and range of just 46 miles I live in Paris and do everything with an e-bike that also has no boot, no passenger seat, a top speed of ~20mph, a range of ~30 miles... but cost me around €1,200 (since I built it myself). It now has over 7,500 miles. In day trafic it's probably much faster than the Ami, and it can also be put on a train. Couldn't be happier.
- sigitprayitno 4y ago
- rwmj 4y ago
  That's nice, but the roads around here are not safe for bicycles of any sort (think pot-holed winding country lanes with lorries speeding at above the 40 mph limit). Until the government gets serious about lowering and enforcing speed limits and introducing cycling infrastructure, an electric car is necessary.
  - iso1631 4y ago
    Do you think a plastic vehicle will fare any better in a collision with the average American SUV or truck?
    - rwmj 4y ago
      This particular vehicle has no safety features, but an EV with some safety features is likely safer as well as being more visible. I wish there was cycling infrastructure and lower speed limits, but that's not how it is now. I used to own an e-bike here and it wasn't very practical.
    - HNDV 4y ago
      At medium/higher speed collisions? no it wouldn't fare better. But at city street level collision? oh yeah it would fare a huge amount better actually. Not all collisions are the compact this metal box into a smaller cube type of collision. At 30km/h and lower cyclists have a risk that simply does not exist for a vehicle like the ami and other cheap car like vehicles : being driven over. A car can kill a cyclist while driving as low as 1 kilometer per hour if the cyclist fell on the ground and the car is running the cyclist over. You can't "drive over" an ami. Unless you're driving a Monster Truck. As a cyclist I am extremely paranoid about things like blind sides on larger vehicles because it takes very little to kill you. VERY. LITTLE.
instagraham 4y ago
> Hundreds of Ami rentals line Parisian streets, which you can hire for just €0.26-a-minute (with a subscription fee of €9.90 per month). It's probably nicer - and more hygienic - than taking the Metro. >And you don't need to have any form of licence to drive one in France! > Anyone as young as 14 with a 'voiture sans permis' - a certificate to show you've passed a basic road safety course - can hit the road. And because a licence isn't required, they're [reportedly] proving popular among the country's fraternity of disqualified motorists. 'The drink-driver's vehicle of choice' probably isn't a slogan you'll see on advertising billboards, though. Interesting USP. We saw a similar thing in India when rental e-scooters started appearing everywhere. Basically they're the cheapest and best ways to 'drive' drunk from pub to pub. Why would you want to drive drunk just because you can? Because the only legal mode of transport - cabs - cost 3-4x more during drinking hours at night. So these were quite popular for that. Over time, however, they got completely taken over by delivery agents, who found it cheaper per mile than any other vehicle
sigitprayitno 4y ago
Markoff 4y ago
What's benefit in this over electric scooter (moped)? Slightly better protection against weather and little bit more cargo space? Electric scooter will be much easier to park, will have longer/same range, will be cheaper/same, will be easier to get through congestion and can also ride two people. I'd for sure trade trunk and roof for parking/maneuverability.
freecodyx 4y ago
Built entirely in Morocco
fattybob 4y ago
It’s neat but for greater range, check out the microlino from those scooter people!! Oh yes, that one’s not restricted for speed too!
- achow 4y ago
  Microlino https://youtu.be/uNp_M76wIws https://youtu.be/uNp_M76wIws
natch 4y ago
Low range means fewer batteries cells (or pouches) means less parallelization means slower charge speeds. However this is probably not a huge issue since the use case for a short range car like this is charge at home at night, and use it only around town.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  I checked the charge time for a twizy a while ago and that’s in the same ballpark regarding battery size, even slightly bigger. It charges to 80% in 2.5 hours and to full in 3.5 hours on a standard European wall socket. No fast charge, obviously, but plenty usable.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > it takes three hours to charge using a conventional three-pin domestic plug and socket. Granted that's with glorious european 230V, but there you go. You can literally go out, come back, charge it, then go back out again. The battery is 5.5kWh. The first gen leaf had an entry-level battery of 24kWh, the second gen starts at 40. It's more comparable to a phev battery (the first-gen Prius had 4.4kWh, the current third gen uses a 13.6kWh battery).
hansvm 4y ago
> no boot Anyone else go into this hoping to see a lack of excessive infotainment and other electronics and their associated boot times (looks like that's mostly also true for this, but not the highlight of the article)?
nayuki 4y ago
It's nice to see that the Citroen Ami weighs around 500 kg. In a crash with a person/vehicle/building, it's going to do less damage than a typical sedan weighing ~1500 kg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_(electric_vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_(electric_veh...
- eastbound 4y ago
  Can’t be used to hurt people. Downside, people can carry it, for example move it when it’s misplaced, or steal it.
  - nayuki 4y ago
    > people can carry it, for example move it when it’s misplaced This can be an advantage when a misparked car is blocking a tram. https://youtu.be/wRPnSHDp3HI?t=34 https://youtu.be/wRPnSHDp3HI?t=34
  - robin_reala 4y ago
    …it’s 500kg. I don’t think you’re picking it up and walking away with it.
    - Gordonjcp 4y ago
      My old Citroën AX weighed about 650kg. I used to park it in spaces about 6" longer than the car by getting the nose in as close to the kerb as I could, leaving it out of gear, and then getting out, picking it up by the back bumper like a big wheelbarrow, and bouncing it sideways into the space.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    A 500kg car takes about five people to lift up. It's light enough that it can be moved if it had to (blocking emergency responders, trams, etc), but too heavy to be moved on a whim
- mrtksn 4y ago
  500kg is still a lot, Suzuki Swift is about 850kg and Lotus Elise is 730kg. These are full cars with proper safety, performance and features. IMHO the only proper safety about this car is its low speed and I'm curious about the situation with car collusions. Ami might be slow but this doesn't mean that can't be in a high speed collusion.
frankus 4y ago
There’s a (YC?) company called Nimbus working on a similar class of vehicle: https://nimbusev.com/ https://nimbusev.com/. They’re still pre-series-production IIRC but if they pull it off it’s a similar price point for a much higher performance vehicle. There’s a lot of overlap with an ebike in terms of use cases but when the it’s cold and/or pouring down rain I’d be much more likely to use something like that than my ebike. Likewise when navigating areas with higher speeds and no bike infrastructure.
- masklinn 4y ago
  Double the battery and double the speed for the same price? Yeah that sounds believable. Reminds me of the original price estimates for the Lightyear One. I guess they're really banking on the part where they rent it out for double the price. edit: spec sheet doesn't seem to pass even a cursory sniff test: > Nimbus One - 9 kWh (swappable) > Charge Time (0-95%) Under 5.5 hours from a standard household plug This is an american product so a standard household plug is 15A, NEC doesn't allow continuous loads (>3h) to exceed 80%, so you get 12A to play with. At 120V that's 1440W, which means 6 hours (5:56 specifically) to charge the battery to 95% assuming the battery can handle full power for that entire range. They clearly aren't talking about a 20A circuit as by my reckoning that'd charge in a hair under 4:30.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
wishfish 4y ago
There's a similar selection of electric vehicles at Alibaba. I'm a little tempted by the electric truck on offer. On my rural property, it might actually be useful. Even if not useful, would be fun to drive around. It's not street legal, but my small town has no problem with ATVs & golf carts. And it has air conditioning. The shipping process sounds very painful, so hoping something like this would show up at local dealers. I'd think the ATV and small tractor dealers could find a market for these. Previous HN Post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32231209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32231209 A video review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixJDOH864U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixJDOH864U
rdl 4y ago
The NEV category (basically golf cart) make sense in specific neighborhoods -- not in dense cities (where they're still too big), not in really long distance rural settings (although a Gator/UTV or something on your own property can be awesome), but in the right kind of suburban/resort/etc. community, amazing. I am not a big fan of bicycle/moped/motorcycle because I usually want more stuff with me if I'm not just going by foot, but something like this would be ideal on a large campus/neighborhood with 15-35mph streets, etc. I don't think I'd be willing to use a Citroen for branding reasons, but a Toyota or Tesla or Hyundai or something would be great. Not as a first car, and probably not as a second car with 2 adults, but as a third vehicle. Maybe even do graduated licensing and let 14-18 year olds drive this, raising driving age to 18 for regular cars.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jeffbee 4y ago
  > not in dense cities The Free2Move car sharing uses the car in the article in central Paris, which I understand is a fairly dense city.
  - dmix 4y ago
    And in Paris 14yr olds are legally allowed to drive them too Renting them is $0.30/minute Compared to a Bird scooter which costs around $0.15/minute on average (with fees to start them) in the US
- ahoy 4y ago
  You'd be surprised what you can get on a bicycle with just a rear rack and a bag. It does require a bit more planning ahead, which I'll admit can be annoying.
  - naijaboiler 4y ago
    I still feel safer in a golf cart than on a bike
  - 4y ago
kube-system 4y ago
Calling these "cars" is clickbait to make these sound novel. But, NEVs like this (and even better than this) have been around for decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_classification) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_classi... Part of the reason they are so cheap is that they are legally not cars, and therefore are exempt from many regulations that make cars expensive.
- gtirloni 4y ago
  *> exempt from many regulations that make cars expensive. Which I never understood. If you're driving in the middle of the road, why does it matter if it's a NEV or a 18-wheeler? I think the same rules should apply. That NEV can be rear-ended by a regular car at 80km/h and the car driver will be fine with their airbags and whatnot while the NEV driver is probably dead.
  - imoverclocked 4y ago
    You shouldn’t be on roads that are heavily trafficked by fast moving vehicles with this kind of vehicle in the first place. I own an electric Ranger (not Highway legal) for around my place and it fills a real need. There is no need for airbags or anything of the like on it. I didn’t even bother purchasing it with a windshield. The biggest threat to me in that vehicle is the dense vegetation and steep hills I often drive through. I think there is an expectation around safety levels of different kinds of vehicles. If I buy a car that is capable of going 100mph, I expect it to have features that will help me survive a crash in those conditions. However, a motorcycle is a completely different kind of vehicle with different expectations. I don’t think a reasonable motorcyclist expects any thing remotely close in safety to that of a car despite also being able to reach the same conditions.
    - gtirloni 4y ago
      *> You shouldn’t be on roads that are heavily trafficked Please help me understand. NEVs are road-worthy but not all-roads-worthy? Is there any law against NEVs in heavily trafficked roads? If not, it's left to common sense?
svnpenn 4y ago
> 28mph top speed please no one buy this. I purchased a vehicle similar to this years ago, and while fun, the top speed was ALWAYS an issue. Even on surface streets, its too slow, so you end up essentially redlining for the entire trip, and even then its too slow. Unless this is purely as second "toy vehicle" for you, don't buy this. Get something that can go at least 40.
- rjsw 4y ago
  All the roads between me and the nearest big supermarket have a speed limit of 20mph.
  - svnpenn 4y ago
    right, but you understand that people go other places besides the supermarket right? hence why I said "toy vehicle". If you are only using this for a single destination, then its not a general purpose vehicle, its a "toy vehicle" or "single purpose" vehicle.
zython 4y ago
The solution to urban mobility is less cars, not different cars than we have now. >She hates every second of the 1.1-mile journey home, shrinking into the seat to shield herself from the constant finger-points the Ami attracts from passers-by. >She refuses to be seen in it again. Yikes if that were my MIL I'd refuse to be seen with her too. The arrogance and dogmatized manifestation of the motorized individual transport in our society knows no limits.
- rwmj 4y ago
  Driving 1.8 miles to the gym probably to have a go on a running machine is something else :-/
JodieBenitez 4y ago
Funny they brought back the "Ami" name (see https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën_Ami_6%2C_8_et_Super https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën_Ami_6%2C_8_et_Super)
andrewl-hn 4y ago
Our post service uses this car to deliver parcels in our neighborhood along with a fleet of electric motorbikes. They take around the same space and move around at about the same speed, but I’m sure the postman using the car is a much happier fellow when it rains.
troysk 4y ago
These cars are carbon positive in most cities as they increase pollution. These slow moving vehicles are slowing down traffic behind them. I see similar vehicles in and around my city in India and they end up clogging the lanes. As most of us are on ICE vehicles, we end up spending more time driving and increasing pollution.
- upofadown 4y ago
  What is the speed limit in your city? Most gas cars are most efficient at something like 60 kmh. This thing goes 45 kmh. So not that much difference for efficiency[1]. After all, we are talking about a vehicle that is only 20-30% efficient to start with. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Speed-fuel-consumption-curves-for-gasoline-passenger-car-by-engine-technology_fig3_261948625 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Speed-fuel-consumption-c...
  - troysk 4y ago
    Upto 100kmph is fine I guess but traffic hardly allows it. That 45kmph is without any load I would assume. Once you add load and real world fiction the slows to 25/30kmph.
zahma 4y ago
I see teenagers driving these things because I think they have such low horsepower that they don’t require the regular class of driver’s license.
domh 4y ago
The Citreon Ami was featured on a recent episode of Top Gear, along with 2 other similar vehicles. They drive them around Paris doing various challenges. Link (if you're in the UK or have access to a VPN): https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001f0wl/top-gear-series-33-episode-2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001f0wl/top-gear-seri...
dmix 4y ago
The design is brilliant, the front and back use the same piece, so the manufacturer only has to produce one part for both sides. In Paris 14yr olds can drive these on the road.
SimonPStevens 4y ago
I do love this, and hope more things like it gets made so there is choice. It's exactly the kind of thing I want for most of my day to day traveling. It's competition though is what I did instead. Last year I brought a 7 year old Nissan leaf. £9,800. 22Kwh battery (probably degraded about 15%, so estimated actual capacity is around 18Kwh) which gives me about 85 miles range with the current battery state. And I get a decent sized boot, 5 seats and 80+mph top speed. I love my leaf, and use it to commute around 20 miles total each day plus lots of other local travel. It's perfect as a 2nd car for town driving. However, that 85 mile range is only in good conditions. With the heating on in winter it's range is probably more like 40 miles. I'd say this Citroen's battery is too small for me to buy compared to my leaf. 46 mile range doesn't give you much spare, especially in winter when using heating. Unless charge points become a lot more ubiquitous. It shouldn't take them much to double the battery size though, and then I'd seriously go for this. (Edit to add, my leaf also has air bags and antilock breaks. What with it being an actual car)
- imoverclocked 4y ago
  I guess this wasn’t made targeting you; I’m glad not every vehicle being made it catering to extreme distance needs. There are a lot of places that are walkable or almost walkable. Having cheaper cars for those places that use less material makes it so that more people can have electric vehicles at a time where batteries are a major limiting factor for production.
  - Marsymars 4y ago
    It will be nice when the cheaper cars are actually cheaper in a useful way. Here, a new Leaf is $45k vs a new Corolla is $25k. The breakeven time on that for my driving patterns is several multiples longer the life of a car. (Not even taking into account that my house would need thousands of dollars of work to be able to practically charge an EV.)
  - SimonPStevens 4y ago
    I'm not sure I'd call 85miles extreme distance. It's very low compared to modern EVs. I'd say this Citroen is totally targeting me. My need is less than 20 miles a day, and I'm saying I'd be nervous about how little buffer that battery would give me. My point really was 46 miles range is too low, even for low usage. In poor conditions with heating, etc, if the range halves that doesn't leave any spare. Unlike an ICE you can't just run it close the bottom of the tank because charging takes time, and has limited locations.
User23 4y ago
> So it has zero airbags. No crash crumple zones. Not a single electronic safety aid. It doesn't even have anti-lock brakes Yeah, no thanks.
mellosouls 4y ago
A classic Top Gear feature on the even more snug Peel P50: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dJfSS0ZXYdo https://youtube.com/watch?v=dJfSS0ZXYdo
- domh 4y ago
  And who can forget the P45 that they created: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFdBcYN3sNw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFdBcYN3sNw which is even smaller, though only one of them is in existence afaik. It's actually at Beaulieu Motor Museum, where I happened to visit last week! They have a whole permanent Top Gear section. Would recommend a visit if you're ever in this part of the world https://www.beaulieu.co.uk/attractions/national-motor-museum/ https://www.beaulieu.co.uk/attractions/national-motor-museum...
Tade0 4y ago
The ultimate stage of evolution in personal urban transportation is the golf cart. On one end you have increasingly fat cargo bikes - some have roofs or windshields. On the other there are kei-cars, heavy quadricycles like the Twizy and now this. Like sea creatures evolving into crabs, it's converging into the perfect form.
- asdff 4y ago
  The only issue is you still end up with all the issues cars have, especially the inefficiency of having people in a dense urban areas get around by standing in line 20 feet apart from eachother, which is what private vehicular traffic basically is, and of course the need for having some place to store the golf cart wherever you go on the other end. At least with bikes you can compress the peleton quite a bit at a light and they don't take up as much space to park (especially stacked vertically like in most bike hubs today), and on a bus you can probably fit a good 60 people inside at least and really maximize the ratio of people moved per square footage of roadspace consumed.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    Why 20 feet? Golf carts are much shorter/narrower than that: https://jsgolfcarts.com/blog/golf-cart-dimensions/ https://jsgolfcarts.com/blog/golf-cart-dimensions/ You could comfortably fit three of them on two lanes, and believe me people will do it. Italians generally drive smaller cars than other Europeans and that's what happens there on intersections. Actually, considering the dimensions, a fully packed four-seater has a smaller footprint than the equivalent bicycles - even Dutch ones. If you put everyone in two-seaters riding alone, then indeed you'll have 1/3 the density of bicycles, but that's the lower boundary! Personally I don't see the point of maximizing it any further than what golf carts achieve. Especially that they provide appropriate comfort and stability.
    - asdff 4y ago
      I say 20 feet to factor in some sensible margin between vehicles. I'm also not measuring bumper to bumper, but driver to driver.
Milo0841 4y ago
Any "neighborhood" car in the U.S. needs decent acceleration and a top speed of 45 mph to work in traffic. Even when the speed limit is 30 mph you'll need to speed up to pass a turning vehicle or to avoid a pedestrian. Anything less just isn't safe for everyone involved. I'm OK with small size, limited range and even the lack of safety features in my sedate neighborhood where I know the streets, potholes and driving patterns. Perfect for an hour of neighborhood errands with five stops, driving to the gym or the library. That's really all we need in a second car.
- naijaboiler 4y ago
  this is a golf cart pretending to be a car.
  - masklinn 4y ago
    It’s literally not classified as a car, and driveable by people who can’t drive cars, how is it pretending to be a car? Because it has 4 wheels and is fully enclosed?
WirelessGigabit 4y ago
Being from Europe. Where they have those tiny <45kph cars for which you don't need a license, thanks but no thanks. People don't get these because they want to. They get them because they cannot get a full license. So now you're on a road with a 90kph speed limit and this guy pulls in front of you. Maxing out at 45.
- Yeahsureok 4y ago
  > and this guy pulls in front of you That sounds like your problem, not theirs?
- masklinn 4y ago
  > So now you're on a road with a 90kph speed limit and this guy pulls in front of you. Maxing out at 45. Oh yeah, the horror. Which doesn’t routinely happen. Because license-less cars didn’t exist. And neither did farm equipment with a max speed of 30.
sorenjan 4y ago
This type of "car" is quite popular in Sweden. You might think that such a cheap "toy car" would be for people with low income, but they're quite popular among teenagers younger than 18 (age limit for car driving license) in affluent neighborhoods. We also have a different class of "car", an "A-traktor". They're usually normal cars that have had their top speed limited to 30 km/h among with some other modifications, and are classed as tractors. They used to need a flatbed necessitating a more extensive rebuild, bud that changed a while ago so now we have Volvo V70 and Porsche Cayennes (and a Scania 164 Topline V8) with 15 year olds as drivers. https://www.thelocal.se/20211021/why-do-swedish-teenagers-drive-small-and-excruciatingly-slow-cars/ https://www.thelocal.se/20211021/why-do-swedish-teenagers-dr...
404mm 4y ago
I love this as a concept. Small, lightweight and ..slow to be fairly safe. The issue is how to integrate it with the rest of the established world. How do you have a little car sharing road with 3ton trucks and speeds 50-70mpg (_read_ 70-90mph, yah, this is Texas). Sadly this vehicle is what vast majority of people really need for daily commute and errands. It’s silly to push for ride sharing.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > How do you have a little car sharing road with 3ton trucks and speeds 50-70mpg (_read_ 70-90mph, yah, this is Texas). You don’t because this thing is not highway legal and should not be interacting with vehicles going anywhere near 70. It’s an urban vehicle.
satya71 4y ago
If Mahindra[1] or Gayam[2] would put some doors on their electric tuktuks, they'd have this thing beat pretty handily, IMO. [1] https://www.mahindraelectric.com/vehicles/treo-electric-auto/ https://www.mahindraelectric.com/vehicles/treo-electric-auto... [2] https://gayammotorworks.com/ https://gayammotorworks.com/
extasia 4y ago
Drove this car over the weekend, was pretty zippy and fun. ( I don't normally drive)
RadixDLT 4y ago
this car has french written all over it, tiny, low power, short range
pulketo 4y ago
Seems like they (re)invented and expensive Power Wheels

162 points by rwmj 4y ago

Huh. I owned a Citroen Ami back in the seventies. It was a gas car (two cylinder air cooled engine), much like the 2CV but made to look a bit more like a conventional car. Interesting that they decided to reuse the name.

mlok 4y ago
Note : "ami" means "friend" in French. I knew about the old Ami (but young people this car is aimed at do not know about it) but I think this is a welcomed reuse of that name.
slim 4y ago
That's the Ami8

agumonkey 4y ago

Seen a few in my area, but not much (unlike the Zoe or Teslas). Always fun to see, since they're small, silent and not fast (safe) and I assume a lot less costly for young owners.

highwaylights 4y ago

Or.. buy a used EV for less and give up none of those things?

rwmj 4y ago

If this was half the price, say £3,500, I'd probably get one. The price seems wildly out of line with what you get. Also I wonder about modding - larger battery, a roof rack and a bright orange paint job to compensate for lack of safety features.

hadrien01 4y ago
In France it’s 7800€, but with government subsidies it goes down to 6900€. There are options (including the orange colour you want!), but the only worthwhile one is the Cargo variant (in place of the second seat) for 8200€/7300€. No battery upgrade.
highwaylights 4y ago
It would probably cost close to that range just for the battery, but it begs the question who this is for. If your budget is £7k there are plenty of used options around that would involve sacrificing much less than this for about double the range (thinking early Leaf/Zoe/Ion). It’s neat, but it reminds me of the Twizy. Just too many compromises to still make sense.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  "you don't need to have any form of licence to drive one in France" I think that might answer your question. Also, you talk about sacrificing things. Which presumably means you consider the alternative to be a car. But this is much smaller than a car, and might appeal to people who don't own a car and don't want to.
- andrepd 4y ago
  > Just too many compromises to still make sense. A huge chunk of car journeys are done to move 1 person + limited cargo across less than 30km roundtrip. The sort of journeys that could be served by a e-bike or public transport, but absent infrastructure for both could at least be served by a small car.
- HNDV 4y ago
  > If your budget is £7k there are plenty of used options around that would involve sacrificing much less than this for about double the range (thinking early Leaf/Zoe/Ion). The Zoe is a 33 000 € car brand new. Cars must start somewhere before a used market show up to cheapen them further. This one will be even cheaper down the road once it appears in the used market. As for who uses it, I know plenty of people who own one to do things like small size deliveries, citroen sells a version of this car that doesn't have a passenger seat for the sake of more cargo capacity. It's a pretty nifty car to have as long as you mostly drive it within the city, where most streets don't allow you to go past 30 kilometer per hour. For city dwellers in Europe, it works plenty fine and better than cars that are too big for some of the parking spots you might have taken with a small one like the ami.

zac23or 4y ago

Its ugly! A key to Tesla's success is that its cars look like cars, not abominations. Many electric car makers seem to hate cars.

toast0 4y ago
I think this is ugly and cute at once. Like a first gen Scion xB (although that was boxier). But this is clearly a car to fit a regulatory niche, few will drive this if they have other options, so style isn't really in the budget.
- masklinn 4y ago
  > few will drive this if they have other options Why not? If you're a city-zen and going to do something in the city too far to go on foot, using an ami is much easier than using a full-size car, unless you have an A-segment car (and even then, the ami is a full meter shorter than your average A-segment, the length of the Ami is the wheelbase of a Picanto or an Aygo). It's not like the 28mph is a big impediment in most city traffic.
Kukumber 4y ago
i think it's cute, it's very small, practical for a city life it's not meant to be luxurious, it's meant to be affordable and it's not meant to "look like a car", it's meant to be useful and practical To quote the article: "In France, anyone from the age of 14 can drive one without a licence. You can also hire an Ami on a short-term basis in Paris. For €0.26-a-minute (with a subscription fee of €9.90 per month) you can whizz around the capital's streets. It's probably nicer - and more hygienic - than taking the Metro or a bus"
- zac23or 4y ago
  > and it's not meant to "look like a car", it's meant to be useful and practical How many "Ugly electric practical and useful electric cars" sell well?
  - 4y ago

zhte415 4y ago

> it has zero airbags. No crash crumple zones. Not a single electronic safety aid. It doesn't even have anti-lock brakes

rwmj 4y ago
If I did get one, I'd want it to be painted in day-glo orange.
sandworm101 4y ago
Exactly. This isn't really a car. It is a fancy electric golf cart with doors.
- duxup 4y ago
  I like the open nature of a golf cart. I kinda wish I lived in a golf cart community.
  - bombcar 4y ago
    You might be able to turn yours into one, just start driving one! https://www.clubcar.com/en-us/personal/street-legal-vehicles https://www.clubcar.com/en-us/personal/street-legal-vehicles
- masklinn 4y ago
  I mean that's literally in the base blurb, it's an electric quadricycle.
  - implements 4y ago
    Yeah, it’s effectively an enclosed four-wheel ‘bicycle quality’ type vehicle - and I imagine a huge chunk of the asking price is to cover the 5.5 kWh lithium battery. I’d like one, but not for £8,000 - an electric bakfiet (cargo bike) seems better value for money.
stefan_ 4y ago
You are not meant to take it on a highway, either. It's a bit like saying "pedestrians have zero airbags, crush crumple zones are bones" - you are soo close to getting it!

csours 4y ago

The cheapest EVs and the most expensive bicycles overlap in price. Not exactly sure what that means, but it's interesting to me.

arc-in-space 4y ago

I'm very uninformed on this but at that point why not get a electric quad instead?

HNDV 4y ago
For the same reason most people are unwilling to go to work with a bicycle even when they live near their work. Quads are fun vehicles in good weather but you don't want to drive one when it rains the beejesus.

phh 4y ago

> And you don't need to have any form of licence to drive one in France! FWIW, that's wrong: only people born before 1985 ~ (i don't know the exact date) don't need any license. People born after that do require a license, which is much much lighter than standard driving license in France, but still requires several hours (I think it takes a whole day?), which I think is equivalent to what actual driving license in some countries.

coredog64 4y ago
A French driving license is an ordeal, at least compared to your typical US state.
- pm3003 4y ago
  This licence you can pass in a day or two, and the theoretical part is often done at school as a way to improve road safety.
forty 4y ago
Yes, you need the "Permis AM" if you are born in 1988 or after. This category of cars is still often referred as "license less cars" though.
- nephanth 4y ago
  The article is still kinda right in the sense that the AM license is only a certification that you got a formation, there in no exam to get it.

10729287 4y ago

Those cars are aimed at rich and posh kids and they represent majority of users here in France as it can be driven from 14.

themoonisachees 4y ago
Yeah for that price only people who think having an electric bike is beneath them are going to buy that

Firmwarrior 4y ago

Not to be confused with Peter Gregory's car: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_Cars_Tango https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_Cars_Tango

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bambax 4y ago

> the £7,695 tiny electric car that has no boot, a 28mph top speed and range of just 46 miles I live in Paris and do everything with an e-bike that also has no boot, no passenger seat, a top speed of ~20mph, a range of ~30 miles... but cost me around €1,200 (since I built it myself). It now has over 7,500 miles. In day trafic it's probably much faster than the Ami, and it can also be put on a train. Couldn't be happier.

sigitprayitno 4y ago
rwmj 4y ago
That's nice, but the roads around here are not safe for bicycles of any sort (think pot-holed winding country lanes with lorries speeding at above the 40 mph limit). Until the government gets serious about lowering and enforcing speed limits and introducing cycling infrastructure, an electric car is necessary.
- iso1631 4y ago
  Do you think a plastic vehicle will fare any better in a collision with the average American SUV or truck?
  - rwmj 4y ago
    This particular vehicle has no safety features, but an EV with some safety features is likely safer as well as being more visible. I wish there was cycling infrastructure and lower speed limits, but that's not how it is now. I used to own an e-bike here and it wasn't very practical.
  - HNDV 4y ago
    At medium/higher speed collisions? no it wouldn't fare better. But at city street level collision? oh yeah it would fare a huge amount better actually. Not all collisions are the compact this metal box into a smaller cube type of collision. At 30km/h and lower cyclists have a risk that simply does not exist for a vehicle like the ami and other cheap car like vehicles : being driven over. A car can kill a cyclist while driving as low as 1 kilometer per hour if the cyclist fell on the ground and the car is running the cyclist over. You can't "drive over" an ami. Unless you're driving a Monster Truck. As a cyclist I am extremely paranoid about things like blind sides on larger vehicles because it takes very little to kill you. VERY. LITTLE.

instagraham 4y ago

> Hundreds of Ami rentals line Parisian streets, which you can hire for just €0.26-a-minute (with a subscription fee of €9.90 per month). It's probably nicer - and more hygienic - than taking the Metro. >And you don't need to have any form of licence to drive one in France! > Anyone as young as 14 with a 'voiture sans permis' - a certificate to show you've passed a basic road safety course - can hit the road. And because a licence isn't required, they're [reportedly] proving popular among the country's fraternity of disqualified motorists. 'The drink-driver's vehicle of choice' probably isn't a slogan you'll see on advertising billboards, though. Interesting USP. We saw a similar thing in India when rental e-scooters started appearing everywhere. Basically they're the cheapest and best ways to 'drive' drunk from pub to pub. Why would you want to drive drunk just because you can? Because the only legal mode of transport - cabs - cost 3-4x more during drinking hours at night. So these were quite popular for that. Over time, however, they got completely taken over by delivery agents, who found it cheaper per mile than any other vehicle

sigitprayitno 4y ago

Markoff 4y ago

What's benefit in this over electric scooter (moped)? Slightly better protection against weather and little bit more cargo space? Electric scooter will be much easier to park, will have longer/same range, will be cheaper/same, will be easier to get through congestion and can also ride two people. I'd for sure trade trunk and roof for parking/maneuverability.

freecodyx 4y ago

Built entirely in Morocco

fattybob 4y ago

It’s neat but for greater range, check out the microlino from those scooter people!! Oh yes, that one’s not restricted for speed too!

achow 4y ago
Microlino https://youtu.be/uNp_M76wIws https://youtu.be/uNp_M76wIws

natch 4y ago

Low range means fewer batteries cells (or pouches) means less parallelization means slower charge speeds. However this is probably not a huge issue since the use case for a short range car like this is charge at home at night, and use it only around town.

Xylakant 4y ago
I checked the charge time for a twizy a while ago and that’s in the same ballpark regarding battery size, even slightly bigger. It charges to 80% in 2.5 hours and to full in 3.5 hours on a standard European wall socket. No fast charge, obviously, but plenty usable.
masklinn 4y ago
> it takes three hours to charge using a conventional three-pin domestic plug and socket. Granted that's with glorious european 230V, but there you go. You can literally go out, come back, charge it, then go back out again. The battery is 5.5kWh. The first gen leaf had an entry-level battery of 24kWh, the second gen starts at 40. It's more comparable to a phev battery (the first-gen Prius had 4.4kWh, the current third gen uses a 13.6kWh battery).

hansvm 4y ago

> no boot Anyone else go into this hoping to see a lack of excessive infotainment and other electronics and their associated boot times (looks like that's mostly also true for this, but not the highlight of the article)?

nayuki 4y ago

It's nice to see that the Citroen Ami weighs around 500 kg. In a crash with a person/vehicle/building, it's going to do less damage than a typical sedan weighing ~1500 kg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_(electric_vehicle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_(electric_veh...

eastbound 4y ago
Can’t be used to hurt people. Downside, people can carry it, for example move it when it’s misplaced, or steal it.
- nayuki 4y ago
  > people can carry it, for example move it when it’s misplaced This can be an advantage when a misparked car is blocking a tram. https://youtu.be/wRPnSHDp3HI?t=34 https://youtu.be/wRPnSHDp3HI?t=34
- robin_reala 4y ago
  …it’s 500kg. I don’t think you’re picking it up and walking away with it.
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    My old Citroën AX weighed about 650kg. I used to park it in spaces about 6" longer than the car by getting the nose in as close to the kerb as I could, leaving it out of gear, and then getting out, picking it up by the back bumper like a big wheelbarrow, and bouncing it sideways into the space.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  A 500kg car takes about five people to lift up. It's light enough that it can be moved if it had to (blocking emergency responders, trams, etc), but too heavy to be moved on a whim
mrtksn 4y ago
500kg is still a lot, Suzuki Swift is about 850kg and Lotus Elise is 730kg. These are full cars with proper safety, performance and features. IMHO the only proper safety about this car is its low speed and I'm curious about the situation with car collusions. Ami might be slow but this doesn't mean that can't be in a high speed collusion.

frankus 4y ago

There’s a (YC?) company called Nimbus working on a similar class of vehicle: https://nimbusev.com/ https://nimbusev.com/. They’re still pre-series-production IIRC but if they pull it off it’s a similar price point for a much higher performance vehicle. There’s a lot of overlap with an ebike in terms of use cases but when the it’s cold and/or pouring down rain I’d be much more likely to use something like that than my ebike. Likewise when navigating areas with higher speeds and no bike infrastructure.

masklinn 4y ago
Double the battery and double the speed for the same price? Yeah that sounds believable. Reminds me of the original price estimates for the Lightyear One. I guess they're really banking on the part where they rent it out for double the price. edit: spec sheet doesn't seem to pass even a cursory sniff test: > Nimbus One - 9 kWh (swappable) > Charge Time (0-95%) Under 5.5 hours from a standard household plug This is an american product so a standard household plug is 15A, NEC doesn't allow continuous loads (>3h) to exceed 80%, so you get 12A to play with. At 120V that's 1440W, which means 6 hours (5:56 specifically) to charge the battery to 95% assuming the battery can handle full power for that entire range. They clearly aren't talking about a 20A circuit as by my reckoning that'd charge in a hair under 4:30.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

wishfish 4y ago

There's a similar selection of electric vehicles at Alibaba. I'm a little tempted by the electric truck on offer. On my rural property, it might actually be useful. Even if not useful, would be fun to drive around. It's not street legal, but my small town has no problem with ATVs & golf carts. And it has air conditioning. The shipping process sounds very painful, so hoping something like this would show up at local dealers. I'd think the ATV and small tractor dealers could find a market for these. Previous HN Post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32231209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32231209 A video review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixJDOH864U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixJDOH864U

rdl 4y ago

The NEV category (basically golf cart) make sense in specific neighborhoods -- not in dense cities (where they're still too big), not in really long distance rural settings (although a Gator/UTV or something on your own property can be awesome), but in the right kind of suburban/resort/etc. community, amazing. I am not a big fan of bicycle/moped/motorcycle because I usually want more stuff with me if I'm not just going by foot, but something like this would be ideal on a large campus/neighborhood with 15-35mph streets, etc. I don't think I'd be willing to use a Citroen for branding reasons, but a Toyota or Tesla or Hyundai or something would be great. Not as a first car, and probably not as a second car with 2 adults, but as a third vehicle. Maybe even do graduated licensing and let 14-18 year olds drive this, raising driving age to 18 for regular cars.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jeffbee 4y ago
> not in dense cities The Free2Move car sharing uses the car in the article in central Paris, which I understand is a fairly dense city.
- dmix 4y ago
  And in Paris 14yr olds are legally allowed to drive them too Renting them is $0.30/minute Compared to a Bird scooter which costs around $0.15/minute on average (with fees to start them) in the US
ahoy 4y ago
You'd be surprised what you can get on a bicycle with just a rear rack and a bag. It does require a bit more planning ahead, which I'll admit can be annoying.
- naijaboiler 4y ago
  I still feel safer in a golf cart than on a bike
- 4y ago

kube-system 4y ago

Calling these "cars" is clickbait to make these sound novel. But, NEVs like this (and even better than this) have been around for decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_Electric_Vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_classification) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_classi... Part of the reason they are so cheap is that they are legally not cars, and therefore are exempt from many regulations that make cars expensive.

gtirloni 4y ago
*> exempt from many regulations that make cars expensive. Which I never understood. If you're driving in the middle of the road, why does it matter if it's a NEV or a 18-wheeler? I think the same rules should apply. That NEV can be rear-ended by a regular car at 80km/h and the car driver will be fine with their airbags and whatnot while the NEV driver is probably dead.
- imoverclocked 4y ago
  You shouldn’t be on roads that are heavily trafficked by fast moving vehicles with this kind of vehicle in the first place. I own an electric Ranger (not Highway legal) for around my place and it fills a real need. There is no need for airbags or anything of the like on it. I didn’t even bother purchasing it with a windshield. The biggest threat to me in that vehicle is the dense vegetation and steep hills I often drive through. I think there is an expectation around safety levels of different kinds of vehicles. If I buy a car that is capable of going 100mph, I expect it to have features that will help me survive a crash in those conditions. However, a motorcycle is a completely different kind of vehicle with different expectations. I don’t think a reasonable motorcyclist expects any thing remotely close in safety to that of a car despite also being able to reach the same conditions.
  - gtirloni 4y ago
    *> You shouldn’t be on roads that are heavily trafficked Please help me understand. NEVs are road-worthy but not all-roads-worthy? Is there any law against NEVs in heavily trafficked roads? If not, it's left to common sense?

svnpenn 4y ago

> 28mph top speed please no one buy this. I purchased a vehicle similar to this years ago, and while fun, the top speed was ALWAYS an issue. Even on surface streets, its too slow, so you end up essentially redlining for the entire trip, and even then its too slow. Unless this is purely as second "toy vehicle" for you, don't buy this. Get something that can go at least 40.

rjsw 4y ago
All the roads between me and the nearest big supermarket have a speed limit of 20mph.
- svnpenn 4y ago
  right, but you understand that people go other places besides the supermarket right? hence why I said "toy vehicle". If you are only using this for a single destination, then its not a general purpose vehicle, its a "toy vehicle" or "single purpose" vehicle.

zython 4y ago

The solution to urban mobility is less cars, not different cars than we have now. >She hates every second of the 1.1-mile journey home, shrinking into the seat to shield herself from the constant finger-points the Ami attracts from passers-by. >She refuses to be seen in it again. Yikes if that were my MIL I'd refuse to be seen with her too. The arrogance and dogmatized manifestation of the motorized individual transport in our society knows no limits.

rwmj 4y ago
Driving 1.8 miles to the gym probably to have a go on a running machine is something else :-/

JodieBenitez 4y ago

Funny they brought back the "Ami" name (see https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën_Ami_6%2C_8_et_Super https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citroën_Ami_6%2C_8_et_Super)

andrewl-hn 4y ago

Our post service uses this car to deliver parcels in our neighborhood along with a fleet of electric motorbikes. They take around the same space and move around at about the same speed, but I’m sure the postman using the car is a much happier fellow when it rains.

troysk 4y ago

These cars are carbon positive in most cities as they increase pollution. These slow moving vehicles are slowing down traffic behind them. I see similar vehicles in and around my city in India and they end up clogging the lanes. As most of us are on ICE vehicles, we end up spending more time driving and increasing pollution.

upofadown 4y ago
What is the speed limit in your city? Most gas cars are most efficient at something like 60 kmh. This thing goes 45 kmh. So not that much difference for efficiency[1]. After all, we are talking about a vehicle that is only 20-30% efficient to start with. [1] https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Speed-fuel-consumption-curves-for-gasoline-passenger-car-by-engine-technology_fig3_261948625 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Speed-fuel-consumption-c...
- troysk 4y ago
  Upto 100kmph is fine I guess but traffic hardly allows it. That 45kmph is without any load I would assume. Once you add load and real world fiction the slows to 25/30kmph.

zahma 4y ago

I see teenagers driving these things because I think they have such low horsepower that they don’t require the regular class of driver’s license.

domh 4y ago

The Citreon Ami was featured on a recent episode of Top Gear, along with 2 other similar vehicles. They drive them around Paris doing various challenges. Link (if you're in the UK or have access to a VPN): https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001f0wl/top-gear-series-33-episode-2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001f0wl/top-gear-seri...

dmix 4y ago

The design is brilliant, the front and back use the same piece, so the manufacturer only has to produce one part for both sides. In Paris 14yr olds can drive these on the road.

SimonPStevens 4y ago

I do love this, and hope more things like it gets made so there is choice. It's exactly the kind of thing I want for most of my day to day traveling. It's competition though is what I did instead. Last year I brought a 7 year old Nissan leaf. £9,800. 22Kwh battery (probably degraded about 15%, so estimated actual capacity is around 18Kwh) which gives me about 85 miles range with the current battery state. And I get a decent sized boot, 5 seats and 80+mph top speed. I love my leaf, and use it to commute around 20 miles total each day plus lots of other local travel. It's perfect as a 2nd car for town driving. However, that 85 mile range is only in good conditions. With the heating on in winter it's range is probably more like 40 miles. I'd say this Citroen's battery is too small for me to buy compared to my leaf. 46 mile range doesn't give you much spare, especially in winter when using heating. Unless charge points become a lot more ubiquitous. It shouldn't take them much to double the battery size though, and then I'd seriously go for this. (Edit to add, my leaf also has air bags and antilock breaks. What with it being an actual car)

imoverclocked 4y ago
I guess this wasn’t made targeting you; I’m glad not every vehicle being made it catering to extreme distance needs. There are a lot of places that are walkable or almost walkable. Having cheaper cars for those places that use less material makes it so that more people can have electric vehicles at a time where batteries are a major limiting factor for production.
- Marsymars 4y ago
  It will be nice when the cheaper cars are actually cheaper in a useful way. Here, a new Leaf is $45k vs a new Corolla is $25k. The breakeven time on that for my driving patterns is several multiples longer the life of a car. (Not even taking into account that my house would need thousands of dollars of work to be able to practically charge an EV.)
- SimonPStevens 4y ago
  I'm not sure I'd call 85miles extreme distance. It's very low compared to modern EVs. I'd say this Citroen is totally targeting me. My need is less than 20 miles a day, and I'm saying I'd be nervous about how little buffer that battery would give me. My point really was 46 miles range is too low, even for low usage. In poor conditions with heating, etc, if the range halves that doesn't leave any spare. Unlike an ICE you can't just run it close the bottom of the tank because charging takes time, and has limited locations.

User23 4y ago

> So it has zero airbags. No crash crumple zones. Not a single electronic safety aid. It doesn't even have anti-lock brakes Yeah, no thanks.

mellosouls 4y ago

A classic Top Gear feature on the even more snug Peel P50: https://youtube.com/watch?v=dJfSS0ZXYdo https://youtube.com/watch?v=dJfSS0ZXYdo

domh 4y ago
And who can forget the P45 that they created: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFdBcYN3sNw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aFdBcYN3sNw which is even smaller, though only one of them is in existence afaik. It's actually at Beaulieu Motor Museum, where I happened to visit last week! They have a whole permanent Top Gear section. Would recommend a visit if you're ever in this part of the world https://www.beaulieu.co.uk/attractions/national-motor-museum/ https://www.beaulieu.co.uk/attractions/national-motor-museum...

Tade0 4y ago

The ultimate stage of evolution in personal urban transportation is the golf cart. On one end you have increasingly fat cargo bikes - some have roofs or windshields. On the other there are kei-cars, heavy quadricycles like the Twizy and now this. Like sea creatures evolving into crabs, it's converging into the perfect form.

asdff 4y ago
The only issue is you still end up with all the issues cars have, especially the inefficiency of having people in a dense urban areas get around by standing in line 20 feet apart from eachother, which is what private vehicular traffic basically is, and of course the need for having some place to store the golf cart wherever you go on the other end. At least with bikes you can compress the peleton quite a bit at a light and they don't take up as much space to park (especially stacked vertically like in most bike hubs today), and on a bus you can probably fit a good 60 people inside at least and really maximize the ratio of people moved per square footage of roadspace consumed.
- Tade0 4y ago
  Why 20 feet? Golf carts are much shorter/narrower than that: https://jsgolfcarts.com/blog/golf-cart-dimensions/ https://jsgolfcarts.com/blog/golf-cart-dimensions/ You could comfortably fit three of them on two lanes, and believe me people will do it. Italians generally drive smaller cars than other Europeans and that's what happens there on intersections. Actually, considering the dimensions, a fully packed four-seater has a smaller footprint than the equivalent bicycles - even Dutch ones. If you put everyone in two-seaters riding alone, then indeed you'll have 1/3 the density of bicycles, but that's the lower boundary! Personally I don't see the point of maximizing it any further than what golf carts achieve. Especially that they provide appropriate comfort and stability.
  - asdff 4y ago
    I say 20 feet to factor in some sensible margin between vehicles. I'm also not measuring bumper to bumper, but driver to driver.

Milo0841 4y ago

Any "neighborhood" car in the U.S. needs decent acceleration and a top speed of 45 mph to work in traffic. Even when the speed limit is 30 mph you'll need to speed up to pass a turning vehicle or to avoid a pedestrian. Anything less just isn't safe for everyone involved. I'm OK with small size, limited range and even the lack of safety features in my sedate neighborhood where I know the streets, potholes and driving patterns. Perfect for an hour of neighborhood errands with five stops, driving to the gym or the library. That's really all we need in a second car.

naijaboiler 4y ago
this is a golf cart pretending to be a car.
- masklinn 4y ago
  It’s literally not classified as a car, and driveable by people who can’t drive cars, how is it pretending to be a car? Because it has 4 wheels and is fully enclosed?

WirelessGigabit 4y ago

Being from Europe. Where they have those tiny <45kph cars for which you don't need a license, thanks but no thanks. People don't get these because they want to. They get them because they cannot get a full license. So now you're on a road with a 90kph speed limit and this guy pulls in front of you. Maxing out at 45.

Yeahsureok 4y ago
> and this guy pulls in front of you That sounds like your problem, not theirs?
masklinn 4y ago
> So now you're on a road with a 90kph speed limit and this guy pulls in front of you. Maxing out at 45. Oh yeah, the horror. Which doesn’t routinely happen. Because license-less cars didn’t exist. And neither did farm equipment with a max speed of 30.

sorenjan 4y ago

This type of "car" is quite popular in Sweden. You might think that such a cheap "toy car" would be for people with low income, but they're quite popular among teenagers younger than 18 (age limit for car driving license) in affluent neighborhoods. We also have a different class of "car", an "A-traktor". They're usually normal cars that have had their top speed limited to 30 km/h among with some other modifications, and are classed as tractors. They used to need a flatbed necessitating a more extensive rebuild, bud that changed a while ago so now we have Volvo V70 and Porsche Cayennes (and a Scania 164 Topline V8) with 15 year olds as drivers. https://www.thelocal.se/20211021/why-do-swedish-teenagers-drive-small-and-excruciatingly-slow-cars/ https://www.thelocal.se/20211021/why-do-swedish-teenagers-dr...

404mm 4y ago

I love this as a concept. Small, lightweight and ..slow to be fairly safe. The issue is how to integrate it with the rest of the established world. How do you have a little car sharing road with 3ton trucks and speeds 50-70mpg (_read_ 70-90mph, yah, this is Texas). Sadly this vehicle is what vast majority of people really need for daily commute and errands. It’s silly to push for ride sharing.

masklinn 4y ago
> How do you have a little car sharing road with 3ton trucks and speeds 50-70mpg (_read_ 70-90mph, yah, this is Texas). You don’t because this thing is not highway legal and should not be interacting with vehicles going anywhere near 70. It’s an urban vehicle.

satya71 4y ago

If Mahindra[1] or Gayam[2] would put some doors on their electric tuktuks, they'd have this thing beat pretty handily, IMO. [1] https://www.mahindraelectric.com/vehicles/treo-electric-auto/ https://www.mahindraelectric.com/vehicles/treo-electric-auto... [2] https://gayammotorworks.com/ https://gayammotorworks.com/

extasia 4y ago

Drove this car over the weekend, was pretty zippy and fun. ( I don't normally drive)

RadixDLT 4y ago

this car has french written all over it, tiny, low power, short range

pulketo 4y ago

Seems like they (re)invented and expensive Power Wheels