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No decent, intellectually curious person should deny religious perspectives in topics like this. Religious writing is literally the prior art here, and still wh

No decent, intellectually curious person should deny religious perspectives in topics like this. Religious writing is literally the prior art here, and still where one can find the richest live discourse.

sneak 4y ago
I think perhaps it is offensive to claim that decent and intellectual people cannot reject religious fairy tales. This sort of grandfathering in of the legitimacy of the belief in the supernatural is... illogical, to use a charitable term.
- TheCache 4y ago
  I don’t think “grandfathering in” beliefs is the supernatural is what is being said here. Rather, it is commenting that one should not ignore centuries of religious perspectives in art and literature. One does not have to be religious to appreciate some of the writings about the human soul and the human condition that have come from religious thinkers.
- Swizec 4y ago
  The fairy tales of religion are a narrative device for the very valid philosophical teachings. The idea that you can’t control everything is core to many secular life philosophies. Stoics say things happen, but you can control your reactions. Comedians say shit happens, but you can laugh about it. Religious folk say events occur, but it’s god’s plan. Buddhists say reality doesn’t care about you, but you can accept that it is what it is. Even poker players say that you gotta play the cards you have, not the cards you wish you had. All the same. Don’t let the framing distract you from the insight.
- billjings 4y ago
  It's fine and defensible to reject the religious perspective, but to refuse to admit religious perspectives to the discourse at all is to take pride in ignorance. In the Christian faith alone, there are over two thousand years worth of literature to contend with, much of it concerned with evergreen concerns like how to be a decent person or what our relationship to be to money and possessions should be. That literature is being added to every week: fresh sermons, both populist and abstruse, are written and delivered every week. Rejection of the keystone of that writing is something I disagree with, but not on any rational basis. Many who do so, however, also admit into their own hearts and minds a false caricature of the religious intellectual tradition. And that is well worth knocking down.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
    I received as much education concerning Christianity as I desire in the first two decades of my life. There is no fruit of that tree that will result in learning for me at this point and much of it that is pure poison. The bigotry of our evangelical childhood is a big part of why my brother killed himself as a successful adult and father. I don't need patronizing characterization of my rejection as willful ignorance. I am not ignorant, merely decided. If you wish to continue to follow those dialogs do so, but drop the superiority.
    - billjings 4y ago
      I'm sorry for the loss of your brother. We're already well off the rails of the original post here, but I do want to say that I share your anger at evangelicalism. Their fundamentalism has made the name of Christianity synonymous with hate and corruption in the US. So...you will find company in your anger with us, too.
- mistermann 4y ago
  Most everyone believes in the supernatural in one way or another, it is fundamental to human consciousness and culture. Take for example this: "religious fairy tales" - now, perhaps your categorization of what is and is not a religious fairy tale is logically & epistemically perfect, but it is certainly not true of all people who say or believe such things, something I know from extensive experience conversing with atheists, scientific materialists, etc. I've also noticed that people have a tendency to judge the cognitive errors committed by those within their ingroup more charitably than those who are in their outgroups - not a particularly rational behavior, and plausibly a decent way to form incorrect beliefs, yet few have any interest in the phenomenon, especially sometimes.
- tsol 4y ago
  >reject religious fairy tales I find the bad faith arguments exhausting. If you won't even acknowledge that not all religions are like Christianity and involve a God, then I has l can have this conversation in the comments section of YouTube. As an aside, I'm a Muslim. It's a sad development that the liberal atheists that used to be my biggest allies, but as of late Ive received more criticism from liberals than conservatives. That stuff is regularly on the front page of reddit now

sneak 4y ago

I think perhaps it is offensive to claim that decent and intellectual people cannot reject religious fairy tales. This sort of grandfathering in of the legitimacy of the belief in the supernatural is... illogical, to use a charitable term.

TheCache 4y ago
I don’t think “grandfathering in” beliefs is the supernatural is what is being said here. Rather, it is commenting that one should not ignore centuries of religious perspectives in art and literature. One does not have to be religious to appreciate some of the writings about the human soul and the human condition that have come from religious thinkers.
Swizec 4y ago
The fairy tales of religion are a narrative device for the very valid philosophical teachings. The idea that you can’t control everything is core to many secular life philosophies. Stoics say things happen, but you can control your reactions. Comedians say shit happens, but you can laugh about it. Religious folk say events occur, but it’s god’s plan. Buddhists say reality doesn’t care about you, but you can accept that it is what it is. Even poker players say that you gotta play the cards you have, not the cards you wish you had. All the same. Don’t let the framing distract you from the insight.
billjings 4y ago
It's fine and defensible to reject the religious perspective, but to refuse to admit religious perspectives to the discourse at all is to take pride in ignorance. In the Christian faith alone, there are over two thousand years worth of literature to contend with, much of it concerned with evergreen concerns like how to be a decent person or what our relationship to be to money and possessions should be. That literature is being added to every week: fresh sermons, both populist and abstruse, are written and delivered every week. Rejection of the keystone of that writing is something I disagree with, but not on any rational basis. Many who do so, however, also admit into their own hearts and minds a false caricature of the religious intellectual tradition. And that is well worth knocking down.
- jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
  I received as much education concerning Christianity as I desire in the first two decades of my life. There is no fruit of that tree that will result in learning for me at this point and much of it that is pure poison. The bigotry of our evangelical childhood is a big part of why my brother killed himself as a successful adult and father. I don't need patronizing characterization of my rejection as willful ignorance. I am not ignorant, merely decided. If you wish to continue to follow those dialogs do so, but drop the superiority.
  - billjings 4y ago
    I'm sorry for the loss of your brother. We're already well off the rails of the original post here, but I do want to say that I share your anger at evangelicalism. Their fundamentalism has made the name of Christianity synonymous with hate and corruption in the US. So...you will find company in your anger with us, too.
mistermann 4y ago
Most everyone believes in the supernatural in one way or another, it is fundamental to human consciousness and culture. Take for example this: "religious fairy tales" - now, perhaps your categorization of what is and is not a religious fairy tale is logically & epistemically perfect, but it is certainly not true of all people who say or believe such things, something I know from extensive experience conversing with atheists, scientific materialists, etc. I've also noticed that people have a tendency to judge the cognitive errors committed by those within their ingroup more charitably than those who are in their outgroups - not a particularly rational behavior, and plausibly a decent way to form incorrect beliefs, yet few have any interest in the phenomenon, especially sometimes.
tsol 4y ago
>reject religious fairy tales I find the bad faith arguments exhausting. If you won't even acknowledge that not all religions are like Christianity and involve a God, then I has l can have this conversation in the comments section of YouTube. As an aside, I'm a Muslim. It's a sad development that the liberal atheists that used to be my biggest allies, but as of late Ive received more criticism from liberals than conservatives. That stuff is regularly on the front page of reddit now