4 ms·

Thanks for posting this OP. I can particularly relate to the Manhood painting right now. I have found many difficulties amid the layoffs. It is a great reminder

by SCUSKU 4y ago

Thanks for posting this OP. I can particularly relate to the Manhood painting right now. I have found many difficulties amid the layoffs. It is a great reminder that others have suffered and struggled just like me, and that this is all part of the human experience. If you'll excuse religion in this secular space, I believe the best thing I can do to help maintain good mental health is to simply accept that many things are out of my control, and that I must submit myself to the divine, and accept that whatever happens is what has been chosen for me. Which is not to abdicate self-determination, only to accept that I can't control everything.

billjings 4y ago
No decent, intellectually curious person should deny religious perspectives in topics like this. Religious writing is literally the prior art here, and still where one can find the richest live discourse.
- sneak 4y ago
  I think perhaps it is offensive to claim that decent and intellectual people cannot reject religious fairy tales. This sort of grandfathering in of the legitimacy of the belief in the supernatural is... illogical, to use a charitable term.
  - TheCache 4y ago
    I don’t think “grandfathering in” beliefs is the supernatural is what is being said here. Rather, it is commenting that one should not ignore centuries of religious perspectives in art and literature. One does not have to be religious to appreciate some of the writings about the human soul and the human condition that have come from religious thinkers.
  - Swizec 4y ago
    The fairy tales of religion are a narrative device for the very valid philosophical teachings. The idea that you can’t control everything is core to many secular life philosophies. Stoics say things happen, but you can control your reactions. Comedians say shit happens, but you can laugh about it. Religious folk say events occur, but it’s god’s plan. Buddhists say reality doesn’t care about you, but you can accept that it is what it is. Even poker players say that you gotta play the cards you have, not the cards you wish you had. All the same. Don’t let the framing distract you from the insight.
  - billjings 4y ago
    It's fine and defensible to reject the religious perspective, but to refuse to admit religious perspectives to the discourse at all is to take pride in ignorance. In the Christian faith alone, there are over two thousand years worth of literature to contend with, much of it concerned with evergreen concerns like how to be a decent person or what our relationship to be to money and possessions should be. That literature is being added to every week: fresh sermons, both populist and abstruse, are written and delivered every week. Rejection of the keystone of that writing is something I disagree with, but not on any rational basis. Many who do so, however, also admit into their own hearts and minds a false caricature of the religious intellectual tradition. And that is well worth knocking down.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
      I received as much education concerning Christianity as I desire in the first two decades of my life. There is no fruit of that tree that will result in learning for me at this point and much of it that is pure poison. The bigotry of our evangelical childhood is a big part of why my brother killed himself as a successful adult and father. I don't need patronizing characterization of my rejection as willful ignorance. I am not ignorant, merely decided. If you wish to continue to follow those dialogs do so, but drop the superiority.
      - billjings 4y ago
        I'm sorry for the loss of your brother. We're already well off the rails of the original post here, but I do want to say that I share your anger at evangelicalism. Their fundamentalism has made the name of Christianity synonymous with hate and corruption in the US. So...you will find company in your anger with us, too.
  - mistermann 4y ago
    Most everyone believes in the supernatural in one way or another, it is fundamental to human consciousness and culture. Take for example this: "religious fairy tales" - now, perhaps your categorization of what is and is not a religious fairy tale is logically & epistemically perfect, but it is certainly not true of all people who say or believe such things, something I know from extensive experience conversing with atheists, scientific materialists, etc. I've also noticed that people have a tendency to judge the cognitive errors committed by those within their ingroup more charitably than those who are in their outgroups - not a particularly rational behavior, and plausibly a decent way to form incorrect beliefs, yet few have any interest in the phenomenon, especially sometimes.
  - tsol 4y ago
    >reject religious fairy tales I find the bad faith arguments exhausting. If you won't even acknowledge that not all religions are like Christianity and involve a God, then I has l can have this conversation in the comments section of YouTube. As an aside, I'm a Muslim. It's a sad development that the liberal atheists that used to be my biggest allies, but as of late Ive received more criticism from liberals than conservatives. That stuff is regularly on the front page of reddit now
TheCache 4y ago
I traveled through and am still in a wholly unexpected series of changes recently and found James Hollis’ book “Living Between Worlds” to be a fantastic study about living through the uncertainty and outside-of-our-control changes that often happen during the adulthood period alluded to in these paintings.
rubicon33 4y ago
I sometimes wonder if struggle is necessary for joy. What if we had no struggle, and everything we wanted we instantly had? Something tells me that life would be zapped of its meaning and pleasure. Suffering, even pain, are like the opposite side of the same coin. You can’t have one without the other, so when facing struggles, try to view it as such; the necessary component in a fulfilling life.
- mdturnerphys 4y ago
  Since others have brought up religion already, I'll mention that your thoughts here are very similar to a passage in the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:11-12 (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2?id=p11-p12&lang=eng#p11 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-...).
- somesortofthing 4y ago
  > Suffering, even pain, are like the opposite side of the same coin. You can’t have one without the other, so when facing struggles, try to view it as such; the necessary component in a fulfilling life. This is true to some limited extent, but it seems wrong to think of the distinction between happiness is suffering as entirely or even mostly about contrast. For example, consider a person who has, through some combination of disability, misfortune, and the malice of others, never had any positive moments in their entire life. If you had the power to do so, would it be unnecessary to help them out of their situation? After all, they have no happy memories to contrast their situation against. If you can't guarantee that they won't return to their previous situation, a contrast-based view implies that you would actually be doing harm by putting their past and future suffering into perspective. When you have no say over what happens to you, contrasting a painful present with a pleasant past is a valuable coping mechanism, but it's also important to not justify suffering(especially the suffering of others) on such grounds in general terms. To be clear, I'm not accusing you of doing that, just talking about what I've heard from other people on the topic.
- tetris11 4y ago
  Suffering with meaning or purpose usually as a necessary sacrificial step that leads to Joy would be fulfilling. Suffering by random forces and then Joy from other random voices can only teach you the lesson that life does not care about you, or that you are a mere observer of your own destiny. Humbling, sure, but not very inspiring.

by SCUSKU 4y ago

billjings 4y ago

No decent, intellectually curious person should deny religious perspectives in topics like this. Religious writing is literally the prior art here, and still where one can find the richest live discourse.

sneak 4y ago
I think perhaps it is offensive to claim that decent and intellectual people cannot reject religious fairy tales. This sort of grandfathering in of the legitimacy of the belief in the supernatural is... illogical, to use a charitable term.
- TheCache 4y ago
  I don’t think “grandfathering in” beliefs is the supernatural is what is being said here. Rather, it is commenting that one should not ignore centuries of religious perspectives in art and literature. One does not have to be religious to appreciate some of the writings about the human soul and the human condition that have come from religious thinkers.
- Swizec 4y ago
  The fairy tales of religion are a narrative device for the very valid philosophical teachings. The idea that you can’t control everything is core to many secular life philosophies. Stoics say things happen, but you can control your reactions. Comedians say shit happens, but you can laugh about it. Religious folk say events occur, but it’s god’s plan. Buddhists say reality doesn’t care about you, but you can accept that it is what it is. Even poker players say that you gotta play the cards you have, not the cards you wish you had. All the same. Don’t let the framing distract you from the insight.
- billjings 4y ago
  It's fine and defensible to reject the religious perspective, but to refuse to admit religious perspectives to the discourse at all is to take pride in ignorance. In the Christian faith alone, there are over two thousand years worth of literature to contend with, much of it concerned with evergreen concerns like how to be a decent person or what our relationship to be to money and possessions should be. That literature is being added to every week: fresh sermons, both populist and abstruse, are written and delivered every week. Rejection of the keystone of that writing is something I disagree with, but not on any rational basis. Many who do so, however, also admit into their own hearts and minds a false caricature of the religious intellectual tradition. And that is well worth knocking down.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
    I received as much education concerning Christianity as I desire in the first two decades of my life. There is no fruit of that tree that will result in learning for me at this point and much of it that is pure poison. The bigotry of our evangelical childhood is a big part of why my brother killed himself as a successful adult and father. I don't need patronizing characterization of my rejection as willful ignorance. I am not ignorant, merely decided. If you wish to continue to follow those dialogs do so, but drop the superiority.
    - billjings 4y ago
      I'm sorry for the loss of your brother. We're already well off the rails of the original post here, but I do want to say that I share your anger at evangelicalism. Their fundamentalism has made the name of Christianity synonymous with hate and corruption in the US. So...you will find company in your anger with us, too.
- mistermann 4y ago
  Most everyone believes in the supernatural in one way or another, it is fundamental to human consciousness and culture. Take for example this: "religious fairy tales" - now, perhaps your categorization of what is and is not a religious fairy tale is logically & epistemically perfect, but it is certainly not true of all people who say or believe such things, something I know from extensive experience conversing with atheists, scientific materialists, etc. I've also noticed that people have a tendency to judge the cognitive errors committed by those within their ingroup more charitably than those who are in their outgroups - not a particularly rational behavior, and plausibly a decent way to form incorrect beliefs, yet few have any interest in the phenomenon, especially sometimes.
- tsol 4y ago
  >reject religious fairy tales I find the bad faith arguments exhausting. If you won't even acknowledge that not all religions are like Christianity and involve a God, then I has l can have this conversation in the comments section of YouTube. As an aside, I'm a Muslim. It's a sad development that the liberal atheists that used to be my biggest allies, but as of late Ive received more criticism from liberals than conservatives. That stuff is regularly on the front page of reddit now

TheCache 4y ago

I traveled through and am still in a wholly unexpected series of changes recently and found James Hollis’ book “Living Between Worlds” to be a fantastic study about living through the uncertainty and outside-of-our-control changes that often happen during the adulthood period alluded to in these paintings.

rubicon33 4y ago

I sometimes wonder if struggle is necessary for joy. What if we had no struggle, and everything we wanted we instantly had? Something tells me that life would be zapped of its meaning and pleasure. Suffering, even pain, are like the opposite side of the same coin. You can’t have one without the other, so when facing struggles, try to view it as such; the necessary component in a fulfilling life.

mdturnerphys 4y ago
Since others have brought up religion already, I'll mention that your thoughts here are very similar to a passage in the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:11-12 (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/2?id=p11-p12&lang=eng#p11 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-...).
somesortofthing 4y ago
> Suffering, even pain, are like the opposite side of the same coin. You can’t have one without the other, so when facing struggles, try to view it as such; the necessary component in a fulfilling life. This is true to some limited extent, but it seems wrong to think of the distinction between happiness is suffering as entirely or even mostly about contrast. For example, consider a person who has, through some combination of disability, misfortune, and the malice of others, never had any positive moments in their entire life. If you had the power to do so, would it be unnecessary to help them out of their situation? After all, they have no happy memories to contrast their situation against. If you can't guarantee that they won't return to their previous situation, a contrast-based view implies that you would actually be doing harm by putting their past and future suffering into perspective. When you have no say over what happens to you, contrasting a painful present with a pleasant past is a valuable coping mechanism, but it's also important to not justify suffering(especially the suffering of others) on such grounds in general terms. To be clear, I'm not accusing you of doing that, just talking about what I've heard from other people on the topic.
tetris11 4y ago
Suffering with meaning or purpose usually as a necessary sacrificial step that leads to Joy would be fulfilling. Suffering by random forces and then Joy from other random voices can only teach you the lesson that life does not care about you, or that you are a mere observer of your own destiny. Humbling, sure, but not very inspiring.