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Yeah but then you need something that people seem to get upset over. Culture. And that doesn’t mean getting stoned or acting weird or being narcissistic af, b

by mradek 4y ago

Yeah but then you need something that people seem to get upset over. Culture. And that doesn’t mean getting stoned or acting weird or being narcissistic af, but having some basic moral and virtuous behavior. You see old people come out and start cleaning the stairs after a rain. I saw it first hand and thought wow this would never happen in the US. You see people get in line and let the people onboard the train out before going in. Not gonna happen in the US. You can drink alcohol outside but in the US people would just be drunks everywhere and trash the place. And they trash the place without drinking. So no. You can’t replicate that sort of dynamic without people acting a certain way. Basic decency would be a good start.

JasonFruit 4y ago
I think you're describing the Midwest. People clear sidewalks and driveways for each other after a snow, unasked and uncompensated. People let each other off public transportation before crowding on. And... there are drunks everywhere. So two out of three. But what I'm aiming at is this: in less urbanized areas of the United States, the sort of shared ideas that allow successful coexistence exist. It's largely the major cities where you cannot find it.
- mattzito 4y ago
  > It's largely the major cities where you cannot find it. I would argue differently, and say that it's entirely a factor of density. The more people that are crammed into a small area, the more you will see the spectrum of human behavior in any given situation. So, in the midwest you might see people clearing sidewalks and driveways for each other - I'm more familiar with the HOA that sends threatening letters to people for not shoveling fast enough. But you don't see both those things at the same time, so you can choose to focus on whichever you prefer. In my experience in a large US city, people are incredibly kind and very much look out for each other, even strangers. I have many times seen strangers helping each other in situations, both minor and serious, and neighbors even more so. And sure, yes, I've seen people acting badly, but in general from living in both part of the country, people in the city are far and away nicer and more concerned about the welfare of those around them.
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    > I would argue differently, and say that it's entirely a factor of density. The more people that are crammed into a small area, the more you will see the spectrum of human behavior in any given situation. Then why are New York and Chicago so much worse in this regard than Tokyo? They’re all big, dense, highly populated cities.
    - decafninja 4y ago
      As someone above said - culture. As to why the culture is different between say, NYC and Tokyo, well there’s many factors involved. But as some people say when describing certain things in NYC, “it’s why we can’t have nice things”.
      - GameOfFrowns 4y ago
        >NYC and Tokyo, well there’s many factors involved. And the most obvious one is demographic composition.
        decafninja 4y ago
        Probably the most taboo thing to say too. I myself prefer the diversity of NYC over the monoculture of most East Asian cities (and I say this as an East Asian myself), but failing to recognize that both models have pros and cons because of political correctness is stupid.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      Manhattan sucks but NYC has great neighborhoods
- gamblor956 4y ago
  Doesn't describe any part of the Midwest I'm familiar with...
  - JasonFruit 4y ago
    It is possible that we're both right. Do you mind sharing where in the Midwest you have experience?
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      Ohio. People there are vile, especially in Akron and the smaller factory towns. And Oklahoma, outside of Tulsa.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - turrican 4y ago
        My anecdote to counter yours: I moved from the PNW to Rhode Island for four years, and then to Ohio. Moving to the Northeast was absolutely a culture shock for both of us, with “colder” and less helpful people in general. Over time, we discovered that the people in rural areas were still friendly, and the city people would open up after they got to know you, but there was a very noticeable lack of trust or respect in Providence. As an example, I remember one of those electric scooter companies pulled out of Providence because they couldn’t stop our citizens from throwing the scooters into the Bay. We moved to Cincinnati next and it’s a night and day difference. Friendly service at businesses, people helping each other in snowstorms, etc. I’ve helped to care for my elderly neighbors since day one and we always get help when we need it as well.
        gamblor956 4y ago
        Sounds like you are white Protestant. Cincinnati folk are really friendly to people who look just like them. For the rest of us, not so much. I got tired of them telling me to go back where I came from, so I did.
- JohnBooty 4y ago
  My experience in America (even up here in the "mean" northeast) is that we do tend to treat our families and neighbors very decently, which suggests that we're not exactly devoid of compassion. However, I believe this is different than what the parent poster is talking about. The parent poster refers not to a generalized lack of compassion from Americans, but a peculiar lack of respect for shared, public spaces. I think it's an interesting distinction. It's like we have a very focused version of communalism. Most of us instinctively want to help those in our "clans" - friends, neighbors, family. But we see much less value in places and institutions that are shared by the wider public: libraries, streets, town squares, etc.
  - wesapien 4y ago
    this diffusion of responsibility for shared spaces or public spaces is one of the peculiar things the USA will share with the PRC.
crowbahr 4y ago
Social programs that take care of the poor are part of that. Affordable housing is part of that. Decency is for people who have things to lose. If you're already a "dreg" why would you behave well?
- TapWaterBandit 4y ago
  There are countries that are a lot poorer that have higher trust than many wealthy countries though. I honestly think it comes down to education and distillation of values. Can America honestly say that it teaches its children to be considerate of others, respect public places, and other such things? Certain groups of people adopt these attitudes by cultural osmosis but it isn't institutionalised nor supported as an ideal by the larger community. In Japan it is. Even homeless people in Japan keep their spaces tidy etc it is crazy to see. Edit: and I'm not trying to target the US here, I don't think these values are explicitly taught in most western countries. Think of things like school kids are expected to clean the school up before they can go home. That teaches people to behave a certain way from a very young age in regards to communal spaces.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Japan doesn’t have particularly generous social programs, and has plenty of poor people.
thebradbain 4y ago
Equally a fault of the people as it is the urban environment which shapes them… > You can drink alcohol outside but in the US people would just be drunks everywhere and trash the place. And they trash the place without drinking. Maybe if 95%+ of Americans weren’t indoctrinated since WWII with the concept of “a single family home and white picket fence” as the American Dream (and anything else is to be thought of as less than), Americans would grow up with a sense of and respect for shared space and environment. Instead we usually look at anything that is not our home/backyard/frontyard as “not ours” and thus “not important”. We see this in the lack of flagship public plazas/squares that you can usually find in even small European/South American/Asian towns, but also the continued shrinking of funding for libraries, neighborhood parks, etc. If there’s no public realm in the first place, it’s no wonder most who grow up have no concept or respect for it. It’s a vicious cycle, and one many Americans (regardless of political affiliation) will insist is the “only” way, and actively fight anything else, since it’s all many know.
roflyear 4y ago
Most US cities are like this. Not the burbs or the rural areas which in my experience is all about me me me.
- throwawayacc4 4y ago
  Most burbs or the rural areas are like this. Not the cities which in my experience is all about me me me.
llanowarelves 4y ago
People don't like to hear it, but a high-trust society is enabled by homogeneity. Look at Japan's demographics, and opposition to foreign religions, languages, etc. They don't allow "the world" to recreate itself inside them, and the conflict and distrust (Bowling Alone, Robert Putnam) that that brings.
- diordiderot 4y ago
  I hope you don't mean racial homogeneity, because that would be a load of _equine excrement_ If you didn't, homogeneity really isn't the best word to convey the idea that social trust comes from long-standing, slow moving cultural traditions. Even then there are counter examples but it could be one of those 'necessary but not sufficient' situations
  - cercatrova 4y ago
    Like it or not, racial tensions fuel a lot of conflict inside nations. America itself has had a lot of racial tension based conflict in its short lifespan than many other countries much older than it. I'm not condoning it of course, just explaining it.
  - GameOfFrowns 4y ago
    >I hope you don't mean racial homogeneity, because that would be a load of _equine excrement_ I'd argue that Mumbai/India or Lagos/Nigeria are overwhelmingly racially homogeneous. So there must be some additional factor beyond racial homogeneity.
    - diordiderot 4y ago
      I agree
    - quacked 4y ago
      Only if you see "races" as the American-style social construct and not as people in India and Africa see it, which is at a tribal level. I had an hour-long discussion with a Ugandan once that explained to me the major tribes in Uganda, and he says that anyone can tell the tribes apart just by look and dialect. A European looks at Lagos and sees "Nigerians", a Nigerian looks at Lagos and sees Yoruba, Igbo, etc. The Indians also have a brutal caste system and thousands of sub-dialects originating from provincial clan systems and would never call any of their major cities "homogeneous". Europeans also had a lot more tribal-based racism in the past; southern vs. northern Italians, Scottish vs. Welsh, even sub-clans inside both of those nations, etc.
toxicFork 4y ago
This is achievable with cultural education and values being taught from families and schools. It's not that much effort, but it may look unfeasible in the beginning.
- wesapien 4y ago
  Culture starts at home and in the family. No thanks to state sponsored cultural re-education.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    If half the families are broken, what do we do?
refurb 4y ago
This doesn’t reflect my observations in the US. I see old people tending to their house all the time. Even sweeping the sidewalk and other public spaces. And some states allow public drinking and it’s not a bunch of drunks everywhere. I’m starting to wonder where you lived in the US.
signaru 4y ago
Of course, everything starts with the people. They can have beautiful things on the open since no one's gonna trash it. I miss how Japanese civilians try not to get in the way of others. When I'm just simply walking past slow people, they apologize thinking they had been blocking my way. Never happens where I live where people have a misplaced sense of entitlement. Where I live, people don't even give a single thought about their car's loud music system and motorcycle mufflers.
wesapien 4y ago
this trash culture you speak of is mostly in the big cities. there are still good parts of the US.

by mradek 4y ago

JasonFruit 4y ago

I think you're describing the Midwest. People clear sidewalks and driveways for each other after a snow, unasked and uncompensated. People let each other off public transportation before crowding on. And... there are drunks everywhere. So two out of three. But what I'm aiming at is this: in less urbanized areas of the United States, the sort of shared ideas that allow successful coexistence exist. It's largely the major cities where you cannot find it.

mattzito 4y ago
> It's largely the major cities where you cannot find it. I would argue differently, and say that it's entirely a factor of density. The more people that are crammed into a small area, the more you will see the spectrum of human behavior in any given situation. So, in the midwest you might see people clearing sidewalks and driveways for each other - I'm more familiar with the HOA that sends threatening letters to people for not shoveling fast enough. But you don't see both those things at the same time, so you can choose to focus on whichever you prefer. In my experience in a large US city, people are incredibly kind and very much look out for each other, even strangers. I have many times seen strangers helping each other in situations, both minor and serious, and neighbors even more so. And sure, yes, I've seen people acting badly, but in general from living in both part of the country, people in the city are far and away nicer and more concerned about the welfare of those around them.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > I would argue differently, and say that it's entirely a factor of density. The more people that are crammed into a small area, the more you will see the spectrum of human behavior in any given situation. Then why are New York and Chicago so much worse in this regard than Tokyo? They’re all big, dense, highly populated cities.
  - decafninja 4y ago
    As someone above said - culture. As to why the culture is different between say, NYC and Tokyo, well there’s many factors involved. But as some people say when describing certain things in NYC, “it’s why we can’t have nice things”.
    - GameOfFrowns 4y ago
      >NYC and Tokyo, well there’s many factors involved. And the most obvious one is demographic composition.
      - decafninja 4y ago
        Probably the most taboo thing to say too. I myself prefer the diversity of NYC over the monoculture of most East Asian cities (and I say this as an East Asian myself), but failing to recognize that both models have pros and cons because of political correctness is stupid.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Manhattan sucks but NYC has great neighborhoods
gamblor956 4y ago
Doesn't describe any part of the Midwest I'm familiar with...
- JasonFruit 4y ago
  It is possible that we're both right. Do you mind sharing where in the Midwest you have experience?
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    Ohio. People there are vile, especially in Akron and the smaller factory towns. And Oklahoma, outside of Tulsa.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - turrican 4y ago
      My anecdote to counter yours: I moved from the PNW to Rhode Island for four years, and then to Ohio. Moving to the Northeast was absolutely a culture shock for both of us, with “colder” and less helpful people in general. Over time, we discovered that the people in rural areas were still friendly, and the city people would open up after they got to know you, but there was a very noticeable lack of trust or respect in Providence. As an example, I remember one of those electric scooter companies pulled out of Providence because they couldn’t stop our citizens from throwing the scooters into the Bay. We moved to Cincinnati next and it’s a night and day difference. Friendly service at businesses, people helping each other in snowstorms, etc. I’ve helped to care for my elderly neighbors since day one and we always get help when we need it as well.
      - gamblor956 4y ago
        Sounds like you are white Protestant. Cincinnati folk are really friendly to people who look just like them. For the rest of us, not so much. I got tired of them telling me to go back where I came from, so I did.
JohnBooty 4y ago
My experience in America (even up here in the "mean" northeast) is that we do tend to treat our families and neighbors very decently, which suggests that we're not exactly devoid of compassion. However, I believe this is different than what the parent poster is talking about. The parent poster refers not to a generalized lack of compassion from Americans, but a peculiar lack of respect for shared, public spaces. I think it's an interesting distinction. It's like we have a very focused version of communalism. Most of us instinctively want to help those in our "clans" - friends, neighbors, family. But we see much less value in places and institutions that are shared by the wider public: libraries, streets, town squares, etc.
- wesapien 4y ago
  this diffusion of responsibility for shared spaces or public spaces is one of the peculiar things the USA will share with the PRC.

crowbahr 4y ago

Social programs that take care of the poor are part of that. Affordable housing is part of that. Decency is for people who have things to lose. If you're already a "dreg" why would you behave well?

TapWaterBandit 4y ago
There are countries that are a lot poorer that have higher trust than many wealthy countries though. I honestly think it comes down to education and distillation of values. Can America honestly say that it teaches its children to be considerate of others, respect public places, and other such things? Certain groups of people adopt these attitudes by cultural osmosis but it isn't institutionalised nor supported as an ideal by the larger community. In Japan it is. Even homeless people in Japan keep their spaces tidy etc it is crazy to see. Edit: and I'm not trying to target the US here, I don't think these values are explicitly taught in most western countries. Think of things like school kids are expected to clean the school up before they can go home. That teaches people to behave a certain way from a very young age in regards to communal spaces.
rayiner 4y ago
Japan doesn’t have particularly generous social programs, and has plenty of poor people.

thebradbain 4y ago

Equally a fault of the people as it is the urban environment which shapes them… > You can drink alcohol outside but in the US people would just be drunks everywhere and trash the place. And they trash the place without drinking. Maybe if 95%+ of Americans weren’t indoctrinated since WWII with the concept of “a single family home and white picket fence” as the American Dream (and anything else is to be thought of as less than), Americans would grow up with a sense of and respect for shared space and environment. Instead we usually look at anything that is not our home/backyard/frontyard as “not ours” and thus “not important”. We see this in the lack of flagship public plazas/squares that you can usually find in even small European/South American/Asian towns, but also the continued shrinking of funding for libraries, neighborhood parks, etc. If there’s no public realm in the first place, it’s no wonder most who grow up have no concept or respect for it. It’s a vicious cycle, and one many Americans (regardless of political affiliation) will insist is the “only” way, and actively fight anything else, since it’s all many know.

roflyear 4y ago

Most US cities are like this. Not the burbs or the rural areas which in my experience is all about me me me.

throwawayacc4 4y ago
Most burbs or the rural areas are like this. Not the cities which in my experience is all about me me me.

llanowarelves 4y ago

People don't like to hear it, but a high-trust society is enabled by homogeneity. Look at Japan's demographics, and opposition to foreign religions, languages, etc. They don't allow "the world" to recreate itself inside them, and the conflict and distrust (Bowling Alone, Robert Putnam) that that brings.

diordiderot 4y ago
I hope you don't mean racial homogeneity, because that would be a load of _equine excrement_ If you didn't, homogeneity really isn't the best word to convey the idea that social trust comes from long-standing, slow moving cultural traditions. Even then there are counter examples but it could be one of those 'necessary but not sufficient' situations
- cercatrova 4y ago
  Like it or not, racial tensions fuel a lot of conflict inside nations. America itself has had a lot of racial tension based conflict in its short lifespan than many other countries much older than it. I'm not condoning it of course, just explaining it.
- GameOfFrowns 4y ago
  >I hope you don't mean racial homogeneity, because that would be a load of _equine excrement_ I'd argue that Mumbai/India or Lagos/Nigeria are overwhelmingly racially homogeneous. So there must be some additional factor beyond racial homogeneity.
  - diordiderot 4y ago
    I agree
  - quacked 4y ago
    Only if you see "races" as the American-style social construct and not as people in India and Africa see it, which is at a tribal level. I had an hour-long discussion with a Ugandan once that explained to me the major tribes in Uganda, and he says that anyone can tell the tribes apart just by look and dialect. A European looks at Lagos and sees "Nigerians", a Nigerian looks at Lagos and sees Yoruba, Igbo, etc. The Indians also have a brutal caste system and thousands of sub-dialects originating from provincial clan systems and would never call any of their major cities "homogeneous". Europeans also had a lot more tribal-based racism in the past; southern vs. northern Italians, Scottish vs. Welsh, even sub-clans inside both of those nations, etc.

toxicFork 4y ago

This is achievable with cultural education and values being taught from families and schools. It's not that much effort, but it may look unfeasible in the beginning.

wesapien 4y ago
Culture starts at home and in the family. No thanks to state sponsored cultural re-education.
- mensetmanusman 4y ago
  If half the families are broken, what do we do?

refurb 4y ago

This doesn’t reflect my observations in the US. I see old people tending to their house all the time. Even sweeping the sidewalk and other public spaces. And some states allow public drinking and it’s not a bunch of drunks everywhere. I’m starting to wonder where you lived in the US.

signaru 4y ago

Of course, everything starts with the people. They can have beautiful things on the open since no one's gonna trash it. I miss how Japanese civilians try not to get in the way of others. When I'm just simply walking past slow people, they apologize thinking they had been blocking my way. Never happens where I live where people have a misplaced sense of entitlement. Where I live, people don't even give a single thought about their car's loud music system and motorcycle mufflers.

wesapien 4y ago

this trash culture you speak of is mostly in the big cities. there are still good parts of the US.