7 ms·

Gore-TEX and other waterproof breathable (WPB) membrane fabrics are ridiculously oversold to people who don't spend much time outside. The amount of breathabili

by jerlam 4y ago

Gore-TEX and other waterproof breathable (WPB) membrane fabrics are ridiculously oversold to people who don't spend much time outside. The amount of breathability they offer is ludicrously low compared to something like unzipping a jacket zipper or pit vent. If you're moving at all, a WPB jacket means that you'll be drenched from the inside due to sweat, and all that water repelled by your jacket ends up on your pants and shoes. Then people think they need WPB head to toe, which is like wearing a big ziploc bag. I had a friend come on a hike with me wearing a three layer Gore-TEX jacket on a warm, completely clear day. I think he began to overheat with it (wearing a sweatshirt underneath) while in the parking lot, before we even got on the trail. He ended up carrying it the entire way. I used to bike commute and walk in the rain, long before even knowing Gore-TEX existed. Being warm is more important than being dry (if you're not in subzero temperatures). Wool and synthetics will keep you warm even if they're wet - I've spent a fair amount of time soaking wet but feeling fine. And stuff will dry out quickly when you're wearing it indoors. If you're a mountaineer, sure - use Gore-TEX if being cold and wet is likely going to kill you. And don't forget all the other layers. But for normal people, we don't need it.

dleslie 4y ago
In the PNW, particularly here in BC, Gore-TEX was an absolute game-changer for hikers. Throw on a tank top or tee-shirt, then your Gore-TEX jacket, and you could climb basically any local mountain between March and October, rain or shine. Every local hike went from being a moist, uncomfortable affair to being a joy regardless of the weather.
- sammalloy 4y ago
  I had the same experience, except in the Sierra Nevada which doesn’t have conditions as extreme as yours. I had one of the original Gore-TEX ski jacket shells from The North Face, but got rid of it after a few months because it was too warm. It was insanely expensive when it came out.
- morsch 4y ago
  What about rain shedding off your jacket onto your pants? This has totally been an issue for me and in inclement weather I wear (non breathable) rain pants (apparently the right word is bibs). Then again you only say to put on a t-shirt and a jacket, no mention of pants -- I guess that's one way to solve the problem.
  - amluto 4y ago
    You can wear waterproof breathable pants, shorts, or pants that get wet but stay comfortable. Unless you’re biking or doing a similar activity or it’s raining very hard, you probably don’t get that much water shedding onto your pants.
ubercore 4y ago
I live in a super rainy city, had to get a Gore-TEX rain jacket because others would just soak through walking the dog every day. It's been great so far, no complaints about breathability either on 1.5hr walks. All day hikes might be different, of course.
hedora 4y ago
Gore-TEX is great for shoes and gloves in the winter (near or below freezing temperatures). It never occurred to me to get a jacket made out of it.
_yb2s 4y ago
I absolutely agree. The breathability of goretex is extremely poor to the point that I consider it a scam. If it's not raining you'll be way more comfortable with plain fabric, especially wool. If it is raining, you'll be just as comfortable in a plastic raincoat (especially polyurethane) with pit zips, and you will stay dry a lot longer in a heavy pour. Gore-tex shells don't breath at all unless you keep up the DWR layer on the outside such that the rain beads off. However, if you do regularly maintain the DWR layer, the garment is waterproof anyways without Gore-tex, and more breathable. Moreover, the membranes don't really last a long time, a few year old gore-tex jacket will have a broken membrane, but the nylon outside shell will still look new. I'd guess that about 95% of Gore-tex shells in actual use are no longer waterproof or breathable due to the combo of a split membrane, and worn out DWR coating. I agree that extreme mountaineering is the one use case where it makes sense. Also, usually with a new top quality outer layer for every trip or every few trips... Even then, there is probably better tech out there, like Columbia OutDry, which puts the membrane on the outside avoiding the need for PFAS based DWR.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  My guess is that you do not live in a climate that resembles, say, the British Isles. Goretex was a total game changer in these environments (and as noted by other commenters, similarly in the PNW in N.America). > If it's not raining you'll be way more comfortable with plain fabric, especially wool. If it is raining, you'll be just as comfortable in a plastic raincoat (especially polyurethane) with pit zips, and you will stay dry a lot longer in a heavy pour. I grew up wearing both, and then later added waxed cotton. Sorry, just ick. You can have my goretex jackets (Arcteryx, Berghaus, Mountain Equipment) when you pry them from the fingers of my not-so-cold, only-slightly-wet dead hands.
  - _yb2s 4y ago
    I am from the PNW and do a ton of hiking in the rain, this is how I came to have such a poor opinion of goretex. I’ll add that I sweat too much on a hard hike for goretex to keep up, which could be a physiological difference that makes it not work for me. Sweat will literally be pouring out the bottom of the shell. For the light constant rain in the PNW, wool with the natural lanolin intact will keep me dry all day with incredible breathability. There are a few companies that make high end wool based gear. I’m also curious if you’ve actually tried a modern higher end polyurethane shell (not PVC) that has well designed vents all over it, or are you just talking about old fashioned PVC “oilskins” which lack good vents?
serf 4y ago
It has a place for mariners, too. Things don't dry on boats. Wool and cotton clothing works like a moisture farm until they rot or fall apart otherwise.
chrisseaton 4y ago
You shouldn’t move wearing Gore-TEX in my experience. If you stop and it’s wet you put it on while stopped. You take it off when you start moving again. If you’re moving you’re going to be wet anyway (sweat) so no point trying to stay dry from the outside. Best application is sleeping bag covers. Worst application is boots. Makes no sense.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  Yep, goretex shoes are the height of stupid. If water ever goes over the top of the shoes, it is impossible for it to leave the shoe (since it is in liquid phase, not gaseous like water vapor).
  - s0rce 4y ago
    They work well in certain conditions, melting snow or muddy trails for example.
  - snowwrestler 4y ago
    The heat from your feet will drive the phase change and the water will evaporate through the Gore-Tex.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    Hard disagree. Goretex motorcycling boots are a godsend. You can easily get a lot of water on the shoes, and if you have waterproof pants that go over the boots, the water will not get inside. Regular shoes that basically don't breathe are unusable when it's more than 20-25º C. It's not always practical to carry around two pairs of boots when out on a trip. My pair of boots are usable in the rainy European winters at 0º C, all the way to the scorching heat of the Arizona desert. With regular shoes, I'd just freeze in the winter or have swampy feet in the summer. The wind speed sure helps in the latter, but it works against you in the former.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
      Thanks for an excellent description of a use-case where they make sense. Sounds great!
micro_cam 4y ago
This was true 10 years ago and still is for many jackets. but the latest generation of wpb fabrics including gore tex pro and polar tech neoshell actually breath really well, like you can get a shell you can bike up hill in and not sweat out now. It’s crazy.
adrian_b 4y ago
Until now, I have used Gore-Tex only in various kinds of shoes, for many years. However, in all those kinds of shoes, Gore-Tex has provided a very noticeable improvement, through their ability of keeping the feet dry even when having to walk through water or partially-melted snow. Even when just walking through a city for the daily commuting, I have found this feature very valuable, especially when going to an office where I would not be able to change my shoes with a dry pair. So I disagree that Gore-Tex is useful only in an extended outdoor setting.
MezzoDelCammin 4y ago
Actually, bike commuting is ine of the hardest scenarios for GoreTex in my experience. Biking in general tends to put Your heart rate pretty high. It depends on intensity of course, but a brief 30-60s sprint to overtake someone or clear a traffic light will take You from a comfortable aerobic zone well into anaerobic. That means "a lot" of sweat eventually. Walking/ hiking does that a lot less. At the same time, on a bike commute You need durability under mechanical stress (backpacks with laptops can get heavy real quick). Aaaand on top of that, ideally it needs to be reasonably cheap (or last for decades) to be economically viable. Personally, for bikepacking, I found that the only Goretex that works is the Shakedry membrane. This is their most barebones slimmed-down membrane. Super breathable, great water / wind resistance, but it's so ligh You look at it sideways and it tears. Definitely can't wear a backpack with that one. On the other hand, my hiking jacket is a 3 layer laminate Goretex Pro that I've used for about 8y now with 25+kg backpacks. Great, durable, waterproof, but You are right- it's not breathable enough for bike(unless You open up all the pit zips, which kinda beats the purpose of a waterproof membrane).
thefz 4y ago
In my experience mountain biking in central Europe, where most of the summer is dry and not so hot, and the rest of the year is damp and cool, Gore-Tex products work really well in keeping you dry when the outisde air is very humid. I regularly use a gilet and a full sweater, these work amazingly well and are worth the price. Besides the breathability, construction is top level for sports gear.
jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago
This might be true in the midwest but definitely isn't for my area, the PNW. Synthetics without a membrane will wet through, and I assure you no amount of wool sweater underneath will save you from misery when that happens (I love wool btw, literally half my wardrobe is wool sweaters). Likewise, hiking through the wet vegetation you find in many of the forests here will soak through your pants even if it's not raining. With snowboarding on Mt Hood, having a shell with a membrane is absolutely necessary on the days where it hovers between rain and snow. Probably the highest value outdoor equipment I've ever bought is a gore tex balaclava for weather like that. It's a huge difference. Some of the new soft shell materials do a lot better than synthetics + DWR, but they still fail in conditions like the above. So, similar to Chesterlon's fence, perhaps it isn't that all of us buying membrane clothing have been duped by marketing, but rather you simply don't know when it's useful.

by jerlam 4y ago

dleslie 4y ago

In the PNW, particularly here in BC, Gore-TEX was an absolute game-changer for hikers. Throw on a tank top or tee-shirt, then your Gore-TEX jacket, and you could climb basically any local mountain between March and October, rain or shine. Every local hike went from being a moist, uncomfortable affair to being a joy regardless of the weather.

sammalloy 4y ago
I had the same experience, except in the Sierra Nevada which doesn’t have conditions as extreme as yours. I had one of the original Gore-TEX ski jacket shells from The North Face, but got rid of it after a few months because it was too warm. It was insanely expensive when it came out.
morsch 4y ago
What about rain shedding off your jacket onto your pants? This has totally been an issue for me and in inclement weather I wear (non breathable) rain pants (apparently the right word is bibs). Then again you only say to put on a t-shirt and a jacket, no mention of pants -- I guess that's one way to solve the problem.
- amluto 4y ago
  You can wear waterproof breathable pants, shorts, or pants that get wet but stay comfortable. Unless you’re biking or doing a similar activity or it’s raining very hard, you probably don’t get that much water shedding onto your pants.

ubercore 4y ago

I live in a super rainy city, had to get a Gore-TEX rain jacket because others would just soak through walking the dog every day. It's been great so far, no complaints about breathability either on 1.5hr walks. All day hikes might be different, of course.

hedora 4y ago

Gore-TEX is great for shoes and gloves in the winter (near or below freezing temperatures). It never occurred to me to get a jacket made out of it.

_yb2s 4y ago

I absolutely agree. The breathability of goretex is extremely poor to the point that I consider it a scam. If it's not raining you'll be way more comfortable with plain fabric, especially wool. If it is raining, you'll be just as comfortable in a plastic raincoat (especially polyurethane) with pit zips, and you will stay dry a lot longer in a heavy pour. Gore-tex shells don't breath at all unless you keep up the DWR layer on the outside such that the rain beads off. However, if you do regularly maintain the DWR layer, the garment is waterproof anyways without Gore-tex, and more breathable. Moreover, the membranes don't really last a long time, a few year old gore-tex jacket will have a broken membrane, but the nylon outside shell will still look new. I'd guess that about 95% of Gore-tex shells in actual use are no longer waterproof or breathable due to the combo of a split membrane, and worn out DWR coating. I agree that extreme mountaineering is the one use case where it makes sense. Also, usually with a new top quality outer layer for every trip or every few trips... Even then, there is probably better tech out there, like Columbia OutDry, which puts the membrane on the outside avoiding the need for PFAS based DWR.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
My guess is that you do not live in a climate that resembles, say, the British Isles. Goretex was a total game changer in these environments (and as noted by other commenters, similarly in the PNW in N.America). > If it's not raining you'll be way more comfortable with plain fabric, especially wool. If it is raining, you'll be just as comfortable in a plastic raincoat (especially polyurethane) with pit zips, and you will stay dry a lot longer in a heavy pour. I grew up wearing both, and then later added waxed cotton. Sorry, just ick. You can have my goretex jackets (Arcteryx, Berghaus, Mountain Equipment) when you pry them from the fingers of my not-so-cold, only-slightly-wet dead hands.
- _yb2s 4y ago
  I am from the PNW and do a ton of hiking in the rain, this is how I came to have such a poor opinion of goretex. I’ll add that I sweat too much on a hard hike for goretex to keep up, which could be a physiological difference that makes it not work for me. Sweat will literally be pouring out the bottom of the shell. For the light constant rain in the PNW, wool with the natural lanolin intact will keep me dry all day with incredible breathability. There are a few companies that make high end wool based gear. I’m also curious if you’ve actually tried a modern higher end polyurethane shell (not PVC) that has well designed vents all over it, or are you just talking about old fashioned PVC “oilskins” which lack good vents?

serf 4y ago

It has a place for mariners, too. Things don't dry on boats. Wool and cotton clothing works like a moisture farm until they rot or fall apart otherwise.

chrisseaton 4y ago

You shouldn’t move wearing Gore-TEX in my experience. If you stop and it’s wet you put it on while stopped. You take it off when you start moving again. If you’re moving you’re going to be wet anyway (sweat) so no point trying to stay dry from the outside. Best application is sleeping bag covers. Worst application is boots. Makes no sense.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
Yep, goretex shoes are the height of stupid. If water ever goes over the top of the shoes, it is impossible for it to leave the shoe (since it is in liquid phase, not gaseous like water vapor).
- s0rce 4y ago
  They work well in certain conditions, melting snow or muddy trails for example.
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  The heat from your feet will drive the phase change and the water will evaporate through the Gore-Tex.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  Hard disagree. Goretex motorcycling boots are a godsend. You can easily get a lot of water on the shoes, and if you have waterproof pants that go over the boots, the water will not get inside. Regular shoes that basically don't breathe are unusable when it's more than 20-25º C. It's not always practical to carry around two pairs of boots when out on a trip. My pair of boots are usable in the rainy European winters at 0º C, all the way to the scorching heat of the Arizona desert. With regular shoes, I'd just freeze in the winter or have swampy feet in the summer. The wind speed sure helps in the latter, but it works against you in the former.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    Thanks for an excellent description of a use-case where they make sense. Sounds great!

micro_cam 4y ago

This was true 10 years ago and still is for many jackets. but the latest generation of wpb fabrics including gore tex pro and polar tech neoshell actually breath really well, like you can get a shell you can bike up hill in and not sweat out now. It’s crazy.

adrian_b 4y ago

Until now, I have used Gore-Tex only in various kinds of shoes, for many years. However, in all those kinds of shoes, Gore-Tex has provided a very noticeable improvement, through their ability of keeping the feet dry even when having to walk through water or partially-melted snow. Even when just walking through a city for the daily commuting, I have found this feature very valuable, especially when going to an office where I would not be able to change my shoes with a dry pair. So I disagree that Gore-Tex is useful only in an extended outdoor setting.

MezzoDelCammin 4y ago

Actually, bike commuting is ine of the hardest scenarios for GoreTex in my experience. Biking in general tends to put Your heart rate pretty high. It depends on intensity of course, but a brief 30-60s sprint to overtake someone or clear a traffic light will take You from a comfortable aerobic zone well into anaerobic. That means "a lot" of sweat eventually. Walking/ hiking does that a lot less. At the same time, on a bike commute You need durability under mechanical stress (backpacks with laptops can get heavy real quick). Aaaand on top of that, ideally it needs to be reasonably cheap (or last for decades) to be economically viable. Personally, for bikepacking, I found that the only Goretex that works is the Shakedry membrane. This is their most barebones slimmed-down membrane. Super breathable, great water / wind resistance, but it's so ligh You look at it sideways and it tears. Definitely can't wear a backpack with that one. On the other hand, my hiking jacket is a 3 layer laminate Goretex Pro that I've used for about 8y now with 25+kg backpacks. Great, durable, waterproof, but You are right- it's not breathable enough for bike(unless You open up all the pit zips, which kinda beats the purpose of a waterproof membrane).

thefz 4y ago

In my experience mountain biking in central Europe, where most of the summer is dry and not so hot, and the rest of the year is damp and cool, Gore-Tex products work really well in keeping you dry when the outisde air is very humid. I regularly use a gilet and a full sweater, these work amazingly well and are worth the price. Besides the breathability, construction is top level for sports gear.

jasonwatkinspdx 4y ago

This might be true in the midwest but definitely isn't for my area, the PNW. Synthetics without a membrane will wet through, and I assure you no amount of wool sweater underneath will save you from misery when that happens (I love wool btw, literally half my wardrobe is wool sweaters). Likewise, hiking through the wet vegetation you find in many of the forests here will soak through your pants even if it's not raining. With snowboarding on Mt Hood, having a shell with a membrane is absolutely necessary on the days where it hovers between rain and snow. Probably the highest value outdoor equipment I've ever bought is a gore tex balaclava for weather like that. It's a huge difference. Some of the new soft shell materials do a lot better than synthetics + DWR, but they still fail in conditions like the above. So, similar to Chesterlon's fence, perhaps it isn't that all of us buying membrane clothing have been duped by marketing, but rather you simply don't know when it's useful.