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Is it possible that young girls are naturally somewhat open to suggestion by their peer group and authority figures? Unfortunately, asking such a question is “

Is it possible that young girls are naturally somewhat open to suggestion by their peer group and authority figures? Unfortunately, asking such a question is “verboten”. This will not end well, unless addressed directly and forcefully.

mikkergp 4y ago
I guess what’s wrong with girls questioning their gender identity? I imagine both girls and boys are open to suggestion from their peer group. What will not end well? What needs to be addressed directly and forcefully? Everyone going through a phase, temporary or permanent, where they question their identities, gender or otherwise seems like a positive change to me. I foresee a world where _not_ questioning these fundamental identities is the oddity.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  I think questioning ones gender identity is fine, and a good thing. I have significant concerns when the "default" response to these questions leads to powerful drugs taken during puberty, or irreversible surgeries before one reaches adulthood.
  - jfengel 4y ago
    It is not even slightly the "default" response. It takes years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors and therapists that it's the right thing to do. You don't just get surgery or hormones just by asking for them.
    - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
      > It takes years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors and therapists that it's the right thing to do. There are still many publicized cases of puberty blockers being given to young children (i.e. before 12 years of age). At least in some places in the US it most definitely does not require "years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors" to have these drugs prescribed. Also, there have been some pretty well publicized stories of young people who underwent gender transitions who came to strongly regret their decision, and they told how they felt, if not necessarily pressured into the decision, that there weren't "speed bumps" along the way saying "maybe we should wait a little longer before you undergo irreversible surgery." https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020
      - jfengel 4y ago
        They sure are well-publicized. Every individual incident becomes a standard-bearer for a right wing who has zero interest in any of the people whom transitioning has helped.
        hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
        Your response exactly exemplifies what I wrote in my top-level comment, where there is an unwillingness on both sides to accept a "both of these can be true simultaneously" posture. Yes, I agree, I have seen many on "the right" take singular examples to demonize the other side with no real concern about the welfare of the individuals involved. But I have also pretty much never seen those on "the left" empathize with and stand up for the individuals who have regretted their transitions or used it to reexamine some of their views. More often than not I see these individuals demonized as "tools of the right".
        a_shovel 4y ago
        I have seen trans-friendly people who empathize with people who regretted their transition. The important thing was that that person was not trying to get gender-affirming medical care restricted.
      - DanBC 4y ago
        > There are still many publicized cases of puberty blockers being given to young children (i.e. before 12 years of age). You know that's the licensed use for these meds, right? To block precocious puberty?
        hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
        I wasn't referring to the use of these meds for precocious puberty, in which case meds are given to delay puberty and then stopped. I was referring to their use for trans kids where they are continued indefinitely until they are followed by hormone treatment. Again, my primary concern is the administration of irreversible treatments to children.
    - gyrovont 4y ago
      Several detransitioners have claimed that being prescribed cross-sex hormones took just one or two appointments. Any previous safeguarding of this process seems to have been greatly diminished in recent years. Regarding surgery, there is a rather infamous 'gender-affirming' surgeon, Dr Sidhbh Gallagher, who specialises in double mastectomies for young women and children. The youngest so far is apparently only 13, and patients report not much gatekeeping for this procedure either, from her surgery. She's infamous mostly for TikTok videos where she exhorts Gen Z viewers to "yeet the teets", but also for some horror stories about poor follow-up care, with some patients nearly dying.
      - jfengel 4y ago
        Bad doctors exist so good doctors should not be allowed to practice. Got it.
  - DanBC 4y ago
    I have significant concerns when the "default" response to these questions leads to powerful drugs taken during puberty, That's not the default, very few children who went through GIDS got access to meds. The majority got no meds. > or irreversible surgeries before one reaches adulthood. Does not happen in England. It's okay to have concerns, but you should make more of an effort to base those on what actually happens rather than on disinformation being spread by anti-trans organisations.
    - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
      > Does not happen in England. Does happen in the US.
      - DanBC 4y ago
        You mean intersex children, right? Or you don't care about them because, er, reasons?
jfengel 4y ago
So... people criticizing your questions constitutes "forbidden", only in German for extra oomph. But if they want to ask questions, it must be "addressed directly and forcefully". They're learning about themselves. You want to apply "force". Would that not be a more apt application of the word "verboten"?
- klyrs 4y ago
  Pink triangle represent. This was tried before. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/lgbtq-institute-in-germany-was-burned-down-by-nazis https://www.teenvogue.com/story/lgbtq-institute-in-germany-w...
- pjkundert 4y ago
  In Canada, it is literally forbidden to help children introspect about the reasons and consequences of such profound decisions as discussed here. Forbidding assistance to youths, to introspect, must be forcefully rejected — it has disastrous consequences.
  - klyrs 4y ago
    Are you talking about conversion therapy? That's straight up abuse. Darn tootin that's illegal.
    - pjkundert 4y ago
      Yes. In Canada, any discussion that isn’t direct affirmation is considered similar to “conversation therapy” and could lead to me losing my daughter. Conversations starting with: “Hmm. That’s a big decision with many consequences; perhaps it would be best to wait and see how it feels to be a woman before you decide, wouldn’t it?” are now an offense punishable by the loss of your child, if reported. You won’t believe this, of course, because it sounds insane.
      - klyrs 4y ago
        No, I don't believe it, because I'm familiar with the law in Canada and what you're describing is perfectly legal. You're pushing disinformation. It sounds insane because it is not true.

mikkergp 4y ago

I guess what’s wrong with girls questioning their gender identity? I imagine both girls and boys are open to suggestion from their peer group. What will not end well? What needs to be addressed directly and forcefully? Everyone going through a phase, temporary or permanent, where they question their identities, gender or otherwise seems like a positive change to me. I foresee a world where _not_ questioning these fundamental identities is the oddity.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
I think questioning ones gender identity is fine, and a good thing. I have significant concerns when the "default" response to these questions leads to powerful drugs taken during puberty, or irreversible surgeries before one reaches adulthood.
- jfengel 4y ago
  It is not even slightly the "default" response. It takes years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors and therapists that it's the right thing to do. You don't just get surgery or hormones just by asking for them.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    > It takes years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors and therapists that it's the right thing to do. There are still many publicized cases of puberty blockers being given to young children (i.e. before 12 years of age). At least in some places in the US it most definitely does not require "years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors" to have these drugs prescribed. Also, there have been some pretty well publicized stories of young people who underwent gender transitions who came to strongly regret their decision, and they told how they felt, if not necessarily pressured into the decision, that there weren't "speed bumps" along the way saying "maybe we should wait a little longer before you undergo irreversible surgery." https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020
    - jfengel 4y ago
      They sure are well-publicized. Every individual incident becomes a standard-bearer for a right wing who has zero interest in any of the people whom transitioning has helped.
      - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
        Your response exactly exemplifies what I wrote in my top-level comment, where there is an unwillingness on both sides to accept a "both of these can be true simultaneously" posture. Yes, I agree, I have seen many on "the right" take singular examples to demonize the other side with no real concern about the welfare of the individuals involved. But I have also pretty much never seen those on "the left" empathize with and stand up for the individuals who have regretted their transitions or used it to reexamine some of their views. More often than not I see these individuals demonized as "tools of the right".
        a_shovel 4y ago
        I have seen trans-friendly people who empathize with people who regretted their transition. The important thing was that that person was not trying to get gender-affirming medical care restricted.
    - DanBC 4y ago
      > There are still many publicized cases of puberty blockers being given to young children (i.e. before 12 years of age). You know that's the licensed use for these meds, right? To block precocious puberty?
      - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
        I wasn't referring to the use of these meds for precocious puberty, in which case meds are given to delay puberty and then stopped. I was referring to their use for trans kids where they are continued indefinitely until they are followed by hormone treatment. Again, my primary concern is the administration of irreversible treatments to children.
  - gyrovont 4y ago
    Several detransitioners have claimed that being prescribed cross-sex hormones took just one or two appointments. Any previous safeguarding of this process seems to have been greatly diminished in recent years. Regarding surgery, there is a rather infamous 'gender-affirming' surgeon, Dr Sidhbh Gallagher, who specialises in double mastectomies for young women and children. The youngest so far is apparently only 13, and patients report not much gatekeeping for this procedure either, from her surgery. She's infamous mostly for TikTok videos where she exhorts Gen Z viewers to "yeet the teets", but also for some horror stories about poor follow-up care, with some patients nearly dying.
    - jfengel 4y ago
      Bad doctors exist so good doctors should not be allowed to practice. Got it.
- DanBC 4y ago
  I have significant concerns when the "default" response to these questions leads to powerful drugs taken during puberty, That's not the default, very few children who went through GIDS got access to meds. The majority got no meds. > or irreversible surgeries before one reaches adulthood. Does not happen in England. It's okay to have concerns, but you should make more of an effort to base those on what actually happens rather than on disinformation being spread by anti-trans organisations.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    > Does not happen in England. Does happen in the US.
    - DanBC 4y ago
      You mean intersex children, right? Or you don't care about them because, er, reasons?

jfengel 4y ago

So... people criticizing your questions constitutes "forbidden", only in German for extra oomph. But if they want to ask questions, it must be "addressed directly and forcefully". They're learning about themselves. You want to apply "force". Would that not be a more apt application of the word "verboten"?

klyrs 4y ago
Pink triangle represent. This was tried before. https://www.teenvogue.com/story/lgbtq-institute-in-germany-was-burned-down-by-nazis https://www.teenvogue.com/story/lgbtq-institute-in-germany-w...
pjkundert 4y ago
In Canada, it is literally forbidden to help children introspect about the reasons and consequences of such profound decisions as discussed here. Forbidding assistance to youths, to introspect, must be forcefully rejected — it has disastrous consequences.
- klyrs 4y ago
  Are you talking about conversion therapy? That's straight up abuse. Darn tootin that's illegal.
  - pjkundert 4y ago
    Yes. In Canada, any discussion that isn’t direct affirmation is considered similar to “conversation therapy” and could lead to me losing my daughter. Conversations starting with: “Hmm. That’s a big decision with many consequences; perhaps it would be best to wait and see how it feels to be a woman before you decide, wouldn’t it?” are now an offense punishable by the loss of your child, if reported. You won’t believe this, of course, because it sounds insane.
    - klyrs 4y ago
      No, I don't believe it, because I'm familiar with the law in Canada and what you're describing is perfectly legal. You're pushing disinformation. It sounds insane because it is not true.