6 ms·

'An explosion': what's behind a rise in girls questioning their gender identity?

19 points by MilnerRoute 4y ago

MilnerRoute 4y ago
The link for this submission... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33744670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33744670
incomingpain 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor There are endocrine disruptors all over in our food, in our environment, and even our clean water. The government is intentionally not banning such chemicals.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  How long have they been present for? If more than a few years, then they can't be why, since the article says that 10 years ago, this wasn't a problem.
  - incomingpain 4y ago
    >How long have they been present for? If more than a few years, then they can't be why, since the article says that 10 years ago, this wasn't a problem. I doubt I'll be able to reply to you, quite downvoted. In my source you'll find most dates are in the 2011-2013 era. Hence 10 years ago. The allegation that "10 years ago it wasnt a problem" is quite inaccurate. Most of these problem are occurring during pregnancy and pre-puberty. Whereas the damage is done, but then you have to wait some period of time until gender dysphoria really occurs. So it's completely a delayed action. So this absolutely is a factor. In terms of all endocrine blocker exposures. Some pre-exist 10 years ago like phytoestrogens in soy products; but most were greatly introduced about 10 years ago.
bediger4000 4y ago
That's easy. Any one can see that society demands more of women than of men. Clothing and behavioral norms are more elaborate. Women work and typically do more household chores and childcare. Younger women are expected to allow sometimes aggressive flirting. There's lots more, like potential jobs are more restricted and women get less pay. There's also a pink tax - products for women cost more. If you see these limitations and restrictions on you, why would you go along with them, if an alternative exists?
- pjkundert 4y ago
  Interesting observation. Also “verboten” to ask, unfortunately. You are not allowed to question whether someone “decided” to pursue such an option.
  - gyrovont 4y ago
    It may not have even been a conscious decision as such. Being constantly bombarded with messages of this is what a woman should be may well have this effect subconsciously.
    - pjkundert 4y ago
      You are not allowed to hold this opinion, or discuss it. Any option regarding transgenderism must equate, basically to "they were born this way". Choice in this matter is evidently not possible. You are also not allowed to question whether this state of affairs is reasonable. Welcome to HN!
      - bediger4000 4y ago
        You just elucidated that viewpoint on HN.
        codefreeordie 4y ago
        And will undoubtedly have all his posts killed in a day or so, and probably be threatened with banning by dang if he doesn't change his views
pjkundert 4y ago
Is it possible that young girls are naturally somewhat open to suggestion by their peer group and authority figures? Unfortunately, asking such a question is “verboten”. This will not end well, unless addressed directly and forcefully.
- mikkergp 4y ago
  I guess what’s wrong with girls questioning their gender identity? I imagine both girls and boys are open to suggestion from their peer group. What will not end well? What needs to be addressed directly and forcefully? Everyone going through a phase, temporary or permanent, where they question their identities, gender or otherwise seems like a positive change to me. I foresee a world where _not_ questioning these fundamental identities is the oddity.
  - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
    I think questioning ones gender identity is fine, and a good thing. I have significant concerns when the "default" response to these questions leads to powerful drugs taken during puberty, or irreversible surgeries before one reaches adulthood.
    - jfengel 4y ago
      It is not even slightly the "default" response. It takes years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors and therapists that it's the right thing to do. You don't just get surgery or hormones just by asking for them.
      - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
        > It takes years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors and therapists that it's the right thing to do. There are still many publicized cases of puberty blockers being given to young children (i.e. before 12 years of age). At least in some places in the US it most definitely does not require "years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors" to have these drugs prescribed. Also, there have been some pretty well publicized stories of young people who underwent gender transitions who came to strongly regret their decision, and they told how they felt, if not necessarily pressured into the decision, that there weren't "speed bumps" along the way saying "maybe we should wait a little longer before you undergo irreversible surgery." https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020
klyrs 4y ago
Until recently, such gender deviance was almost uniformly met with shunning, violence, and involuntary commitment. NHS did not offer these services. Culture has changed to be more permissive. NHS now offers these services, and are seeing demand. PANIC!!!
sn0w_crash 4y ago
This is good news for big pharma. Transgender medicine presents a huge revenue opportunity. Monetizing a human by charging them a subscription fee to be who they identify as is a new subscription model that can last a lifetime. The LTV is huge. The issue is that not many folks identify as trans. If anything, it would be in the interest of Pfizer to encourage more kids to question their identity and transition.
- salawat 4y ago
  They already have that with ...most patients. Didn't you read the Goldman Sachs analysis? Cures aren't good business. Symptom mitigation is where it's at.
- DanBC 4y ago
  You're claiming that providing a cheap, unpatented, medication to 0.5% of the population is some kid of growth opportunity when the same meds are used for nearly 1 in 3 women?
frontman1988 4y ago
Won't be surprised to find chinese/russian influence in this as well. Tiktok which teenagers use is full of such themes. Transitioning permanently to another gender in majority of cases makes the person incapable of procreation which in turn might lead to a sizeable population collapse if such trends keep increasing.
hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
I kind of despise how so much of our current politics and tribalism often prevents what I call the "both of these things can, and likely are, true" hypotheses. Instead you have each side demanding that only their "thing" is true. In this case, I think it's highly likely that both of these things are true: 1. A society that is much more accepting of trans and other gender identities means that young people who would have previously hidden or suppressed their feelings of gender dysphoria will now seek out help to navigate these feelings. 2. Everyone, especially young people and teenagers, want to feel special and stand out, and while non-traditional gender identities were previously demonized, they can now serve as a way to be special and demand attention in certain societal groups. This, some young people who are going through the confusing feelings of puberty may be much more likely to say they are trans or non-binary, even if this is something they may not feel as strongly about when they reach adulthood.
- gyrovont 4y ago
  Could be, though neither of these explain quite why it is girls in particular who are attempting to identify out of their sex, in a much larger ratio than boys. Perhaps one root cause is that girls are uncomfortably sexualised much more than boys (as in, the 'male gaze'), and some try to escape this by adopting a belief that they're not girls / young women.
  - raxxorraxor 4y ago
    I do believe it is a way to evade expectations, which are in my opinion much higher than for boys in the current culture. But I doubt it is boys oogling them. It isn't their fault and not the fault of boys. On the contrary, I believe the expectations are much more often expressed by peers and parents.
leephillips 4y ago
The book describing this phenomenon came out two years ago, and was called one of the best books of the year by the Economist and the London Times: https://www.amazon.com/Irreversible-Damage-Transgender-Seducing-Daughters/dp/1684510317/ https://www.amazon.com/Irreversible-Damage-Transgender-Seduc...
- gyrovont 4y ago
  It's a very good read. Helen Joyce's Trans and Kathleen Stock's Material Girls are also excellent critiques of this movement.
  - a_shovel 4y ago
    Helen Joyce is an eugenics advocate who has stated that she believes it is necessary to reduce the number of transgender people, even happily-transitioned ones, because she sees them as "damaged" and "a huge problem to a sane world" because they require "special accomodation".
    - gyrovont 4y ago
      She is not a eugenics advocate. That is a truly nonsensical summary of her viewpoint.
      - a_shovel 4y ago
        It is a straightforwardly true description of what she said. Here's a link. [ https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/06/03/helen-joyce-transgender-lgbtq/ https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/06/03/helen-joyce-transgende... ] It contains direct quotes and video of her statements. Her statements quoted in the first section constitute support for involuntary eugenics; this means she is an eugenics advocate.
        gyrovont 4y ago
        No it's not, and no she isn't. She's talking about reducing the number of transitions. As in, discouraging or limiting the medicinal and surgical interventions that people who are unhappy with their sex sometimes pursue. She is not advocating for people to be exterminated or sterilised or anything like that. That is an absurd reinterpretation of what she actually said.

19 points by MilnerRoute 4y ago

The link for this submission... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33744670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33744670

incomingpain 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor There are endocrine disruptors all over in our food, in our environment, and even our clean water. The government is intentionally not banning such chemicals.

josephcsible 4y ago
How long have they been present for? If more than a few years, then they can't be why, since the article says that 10 years ago, this wasn't a problem.
- incomingpain 4y ago
  >How long have they been present for? If more than a few years, then they can't be why, since the article says that 10 years ago, this wasn't a problem. I doubt I'll be able to reply to you, quite downvoted. In my source you'll find most dates are in the 2011-2013 era. Hence 10 years ago. The allegation that "10 years ago it wasnt a problem" is quite inaccurate. Most of these problem are occurring during pregnancy and pre-puberty. Whereas the damage is done, but then you have to wait some period of time until gender dysphoria really occurs. So it's completely a delayed action. So this absolutely is a factor. In terms of all endocrine blocker exposures. Some pre-exist 10 years ago like phytoestrogens in soy products; but most were greatly introduced about 10 years ago.

bediger4000 4y ago

That's easy. Any one can see that society demands more of women than of men. Clothing and behavioral norms are more elaborate. Women work and typically do more household chores and childcare. Younger women are expected to allow sometimes aggressive flirting. There's lots more, like potential jobs are more restricted and women get less pay. There's also a pink tax - products for women cost more. If you see these limitations and restrictions on you, why would you go along with them, if an alternative exists?

pjkundert 4y ago
Interesting observation. Also “verboten” to ask, unfortunately. You are not allowed to question whether someone “decided” to pursue such an option.
- gyrovont 4y ago
  It may not have even been a conscious decision as such. Being constantly bombarded with messages of this is what a woman should be may well have this effect subconsciously.
  - pjkundert 4y ago
    You are not allowed to hold this opinion, or discuss it. Any option regarding transgenderism must equate, basically to "they were born this way". Choice in this matter is evidently not possible. You are also not allowed to question whether this state of affairs is reasonable. Welcome to HN!
    - bediger4000 4y ago
      You just elucidated that viewpoint on HN.
      - codefreeordie 4y ago
        And will undoubtedly have all his posts killed in a day or so, and probably be threatened with banning by dang if he doesn't change his views

pjkundert 4y ago

Is it possible that young girls are naturally somewhat open to suggestion by their peer group and authority figures? Unfortunately, asking such a question is “verboten”. This will not end well, unless addressed directly and forcefully.

mikkergp 4y ago
I guess what’s wrong with girls questioning their gender identity? I imagine both girls and boys are open to suggestion from their peer group. What will not end well? What needs to be addressed directly and forcefully? Everyone going through a phase, temporary or permanent, where they question their identities, gender or otherwise seems like a positive change to me. I foresee a world where _not_ questioning these fundamental identities is the oddity.
- hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
  I think questioning ones gender identity is fine, and a good thing. I have significant concerns when the "default" response to these questions leads to powerful drugs taken during puberty, or irreversible surgeries before one reaches adulthood.
  - jfengel 4y ago
    It is not even slightly the "default" response. It takes years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors and therapists that it's the right thing to do. You don't just get surgery or hormones just by asking for them.
    - hn_throwaway_99 4y ago
      > It takes years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors and therapists that it's the right thing to do. There are still many publicized cases of puberty blockers being given to young children (i.e. before 12 years of age). At least in some places in the US it most definitely does not require "years of dedicated effort to prove to a slew of doctors" to have these drugs prescribed. Also, there have been some pretty well publicized stories of young people who underwent gender transitions who came to strongly regret their decision, and they told how they felt, if not necessarily pressured into the decision, that there weren't "speed bumps" along the way saying "maybe we should wait a little longer before you undergo irreversible surgery." https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

klyrs 4y ago

Until recently, such gender deviance was almost uniformly met with shunning, violence, and involuntary commitment. NHS did not offer these services. Culture has changed to be more permissive. NHS now offers these services, and are seeing demand. PANIC!!!

sn0w_crash 4y ago

This is good news for big pharma. Transgender medicine presents a huge revenue opportunity. Monetizing a human by charging them a subscription fee to be who they identify as is a new subscription model that can last a lifetime. The LTV is huge. The issue is that not many folks identify as trans. If anything, it would be in the interest of Pfizer to encourage more kids to question their identity and transition.

salawat 4y ago
They already have that with ...most patients. Didn't you read the Goldman Sachs analysis? Cures aren't good business. Symptom mitigation is where it's at.
DanBC 4y ago
You're claiming that providing a cheap, unpatented, medication to 0.5% of the population is some kid of growth opportunity when the same meds are used for nearly 1 in 3 women?

frontman1988 4y ago

Won't be surprised to find chinese/russian influence in this as well. Tiktok which teenagers use is full of such themes. Transitioning permanently to another gender in majority of cases makes the person incapable of procreation which in turn might lead to a sizeable population collapse if such trends keep increasing.

hn_throwaway_99 4y ago

I kind of despise how so much of our current politics and tribalism often prevents what I call the "both of these things can, and likely are, true" hypotheses. Instead you have each side demanding that only their "thing" is true. In this case, I think it's highly likely that both of these things are true: 1. A society that is much more accepting of trans and other gender identities means that young people who would have previously hidden or suppressed their feelings of gender dysphoria will now seek out help to navigate these feelings. 2. Everyone, especially young people and teenagers, want to feel special and stand out, and while non-traditional gender identities were previously demonized, they can now serve as a way to be special and demand attention in certain societal groups. This, some young people who are going through the confusing feelings of puberty may be much more likely to say they are trans or non-binary, even if this is something they may not feel as strongly about when they reach adulthood.

gyrovont 4y ago
Could be, though neither of these explain quite why it is girls in particular who are attempting to identify out of their sex, in a much larger ratio than boys. Perhaps one root cause is that girls are uncomfortably sexualised much more than boys (as in, the 'male gaze'), and some try to escape this by adopting a belief that they're not girls / young women.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  I do believe it is a way to evade expectations, which are in my opinion much higher than for boys in the current culture. But I doubt it is boys oogling them. It isn't their fault and not the fault of boys. On the contrary, I believe the expectations are much more often expressed by peers and parents.

leephillips 4y ago

The book describing this phenomenon came out two years ago, and was called one of the best books of the year by the Economist and the London Times: https://www.amazon.com/Irreversible-Damage-Transgender-Seducing-Daughters/dp/1684510317/ https://www.amazon.com/Irreversible-Damage-Transgender-Seduc...

gyrovont 4y ago
It's a very good read. Helen Joyce's Trans and Kathleen Stock's Material Girls are also excellent critiques of this movement.
- a_shovel 4y ago
  Helen Joyce is an eugenics advocate who has stated that she believes it is necessary to reduce the number of transgender people, even happily-transitioned ones, because she sees them as "damaged" and "a huge problem to a sane world" because they require "special accomodation".
  - gyrovont 4y ago
    She is not a eugenics advocate. That is a truly nonsensical summary of her viewpoint.
    - a_shovel 4y ago
      It is a straightforwardly true description of what she said. Here's a link. [ https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/06/03/helen-joyce-transgender-lgbtq/ https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/06/03/helen-joyce-transgende... ] It contains direct quotes and video of her statements. Her statements quoted in the first section constitute support for involuntary eugenics; this means she is an eugenics advocate.
      - gyrovont 4y ago
        No it's not, and no she isn't. She's talking about reducing the number of transitions. As in, discouraging or limiting the medicinal and surgical interventions that people who are unhappy with their sex sometimes pursue. She is not advocating for people to be exterminated or sterilised or anything like that. That is an absurd reinterpretation of what she actually said.