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So to be clear, Europe has pursued its own protectionist economic policies for decades, neglected their military funding, and pursued energy policy that made th

So to be clear, Europe has pursued its own protectionist economic policies for decades, neglected their military funding, and pursued energy policy that made them extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia, all while poopoo-ing the US, and now that the chickens are coming home to roost they are blaming the US for it?

Silverback_VII 4y ago
- factsarelolz 4y ago
  - boringg 4y ago
    Also maybe Ukraine would be Russia right now.
- amanaplanacanal 4y ago
  Ukraine is not allowed to choose its own alliances? Strangely it’s never Ukraine complaining about this, it’s always Russia and Russian apologists.
  - Silverback_VII 4y ago
    There is simply no future for European countries with a hostile Russia in the neighbourhood. From the US perspective, the war and the nukes are far away but that's not the case in Europe...
    - kodyo 4y ago
      Step 1. Make Russia hostile.
      - themitigating 4y ago
        Taking defensive measures or creating new alliances for protection is not as hostile as invading a country. Especially after Crimea. You're basically telling countries "If you try to prepare for war, we'll attack you. The best thing to do is be as unprepared as possible with as few allies"
        Normille 4y ago
        >You're basically telling countries "If you try to prepare for war, we'll attack you. The best thing to do is be as unprepared as possible with as few allies" Glad to hear you support Iran's and North Korea's nuclear programmes.
        themitigating 4y ago
        So how do defensive nuclear weapons work?
        tsimionescu 4y ago
        You have a nuke, so people don't invade your territory for fear you might use it.
  - nix23 4y ago
    Cuba was not allowed to station Nuclear weapons right?
    - mopsi 4y ago
      Who's stationing nuclear weapons anywhere? There is no need nor any will for that. It isn't 1962 anymore, modern missiles are intercontinental.
      - nix23 4y ago
        >>U.S.-owned nuclear weapons stored in five NATO member states across six bases: Kleine Brogel in Belgium, Büchel Air Base in Germany, Aviano and Ghedi Air Bases in Italy, Volkel Air Base in the Netherlands, and Incirlik in Turkey. https://armscontrolcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/NATO_NSNW_factsheet.pdf https://armscontrolcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/NAT... And i don't even talk about "shields" that fire the nuclear competition until today. >modern missiles are intercontinental. No those are the old missiles, easy detectable starts and "lot's" of time for countermeasures.
- themitigating 4y ago
  How did the US interfere in Ukraine? They already lost part of their country in a previous war with Russia and now when they seek alliances with the US you think that's being forced upon them? It's most logical thing to do and has proven correct since Putin invaded again.
- ksidudwbw 4y ago
  Even if US/CIA did push a coup in Ukraine, Russia should have foreseen it and counter acted it. Intelligence operations is a thing and you can't start genociding just because you sucked at basic intelligence work in neighbouring countries.
  - yucky 4y ago
    > Even if US/CIA did push a coup in Ukraine, Russia should have foreseen it and counter acted it. They did, which is how they ended up taking Crimea.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Is there evidence of this coup?
      - yucky 4y ago
        Assuming that you're asking this in good faith and would like to read more from reliable sources, here are a handful of them from across the political spectrum: "Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call" - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 "The CIA And FBI Are Reportedly Advising Ukraine As Pro-Russia Separatists Spread Across The Country" - https://www.businessinsider.com/cia-and-fbi-reportedly-advising-ukraine-2014-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/cia-and-fbi-reportedly-advis... "Pierre Omidyar co-funded Ukraine revolution groups with US government, documents show" - https://pandodaily.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-ukraine-revolution-groups-with-us-government-documents-show/ https://pandodaily.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-u... Our use of CIA/State Dept Tech Camp to help foment revolution, video posted by US embassy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpIoBUDuL3U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpIoBUDuL3U (also see this for background on how we use the program elsewhere: https://www.fastcompany.com/1744389/hillary-clintons-senior-tech-advisor-talks-radical-global-citizenship https://www.fastcompany.com/1744389/hillary-clintons-senior-... "Washington Was Behind Ukraine Coup: Obama admits that US “Brokered a Deal” in Support of “Regime Change”" - https://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-was-behind-ukraine-coup-obama-admits-that-us-brokered-a-deal-in-support-of-regime-change/5429142 https://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-was-behind-ukraine-... "How and why the U.S. Government Perpetrated the 2014 Coup in Ukraine" - https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-go... "In the rapidly worsening Ukraine fiasco, the U.S. is reaping exactly what it sowed" - https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in-the-rapidly-worsening-ukraine-fiasco-the-us-is-reaping-exactly-what-it-sowed/ https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in-the-rapidly-worsening-uk... "A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War" - https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia... "The 2014 coup in Ukraine" - https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine "The United States Is Reaping What It Sowed in Ukraine" - https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-benjamin-davies-220201/ https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-b... "Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault" - https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-t...
whearyou 4y ago
Sounds about right
lo_zamoyski 4y ago
The headline should read "Western Europe". A couple of Western European officials don't speak for all Europeans, as much as they might want to or pretend to. Perhaps the Cold War prejudice of drawing the line between Western Europe ("really real" Europe) and Central/Eastern Europe (terra incognita) still persists. But consider Poland[0]. [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-military-superpower-poland-army/ https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-military-superpower-p...
- profstasiak 4y ago
  what is the point of your linked article?
- blub 4y ago
  But those officials do speak for the two strongest economies in the EU, from which Eastern Europe also depends. And Poland’s complaining too about the prices of Norwegian gas. Turns out the government forgot to negotiate long-term contracts and they have to pay market prices.
  - lo_zamoyski 4y ago
    Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Poland has only rosy things to say about the US (it doesn't). But we may speak about varying degrees of criticism, especially in context. Polish spending on American military equipment (but not only: see S. Korean purchases) and energy technology (Bechtel/Westinghouse, for example) has been increasing. Even before the war, at least some diplomats were disappointed with the high prices being negotiated for military equipment (I can recall such criticisms as far back as the Kwasniewski presidency), but Poland continues to negotiate and make new US purchases, and intends to increase military spending from 2.4% to 5% (see article linked in my original post). The terms under which American presence in Poland were negotiated are also very favorable for the US. In fact, terms are in general favorable for the US, even if it comes at a significant cost to Poland (I cannot judge how optimal the political/diplomatic calculus is). My point is that I have not seen evidence of any uptick in Polish criticism beyond the usual airing of grievances. Of course, if that has happened, and military contractors are raising prices artificially or ridiculously, I would kindly ask for a reference. W.r.t. Norwegian gas, yes, I recall several months ago, the Polish prime minister did indeed criticize Norway, but I thought we were talking about new EU criticism of the US? In another comment, I did explicitly refrain from commenting on price gouging surrounding gas as I don't know to what degree that is occurring (my original post was specifically related to defense, which perhaps was not clear except by implication given the link).
Kukumber 4y ago
France chose to massively invest in nuclear Energy thanks to De Gaulle, he wasn't pro-american Germany/Poland were all pro-american, so it's wrong to say "and pursued energy policy that made them extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia, all while poopoo-ing the US", do you know how Poland hates Russia? "neglected their military funding" is also wrong, that was an american wish, the "Demilitarization of Europe" [1] Europe is in this mess because of the US, and their multiple global trade sanctions which have prevented the EU from multiplying their source of supply and policies that forced the demilitarization of Europe, we also see the continuation of it nowadays with them sending all of their ammunitions to Ukraine And it's not just with natural gas but also uranium and lithium, US/AUS companies busy in Spain mining their resources for example [2] The multiple suspicious NGOs against nuclear energy in Europe are also something interesting ;) [1] - http://www.klauslarres.org/articles-1991-2015.html http://www.klauslarres.org/articles-1991-2015.html [2] - https://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/articles/entry/locals-are-fighting-a-lithium-mine-in-spain/ https://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/articles/entry...
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Dependence on Russian oil was not the pro America choice, it was the cheapest, easiest, short term gain with a huge long tail risk that’s now popped.
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  OK, I looked at [1]: >While Gates never outlined what he actually meant by “demilitarization”, the U.S. Department of Defense and most analysts use the phrase when referring to the European countries’ tendency to reduce the size of their armies, navies and air force personnel and delay updating their military hardware. However, European “demilitarization” also includes the cultural reorientation of most EU nations away from militarization and an overly international activism. Thus European “demilitarization” is also a matter of attitude rather than merely a question of expenditure on military forces and hardware. There's some academic smoke-blowing for you. But let's make it simple: 2% of GDP to be spent on defense. They've agreed to do it, but until Ukraine they just refused. Was there some help from the US that they were missing? https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/07/20/how-european-countries-stand-on-2-of-gdp-defence-spending https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/07/20/how-european-c... Oh look, here's Germany coming in at 1%: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293562/expenditure-on-military-defense-as-gdp-share-in-the-european-union-eu-27/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293562/expenditure-on-m...
quyleanh 4y ago
It was win-win situation, even the protectionist policies. When it changes and one side has to take the lose, they cannot silent anymore. Btw, it's not simple like the way you talk "bad actor Russia". They all come with bad and good things, depends on the perspective. And they all have their own benefits and intends. Politics is very complicated, isn't it?
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Genocidal Russia should suffice for clarity
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
> Europe has pursued its own protectionist economic policies for decades, neglected their military funding, and pursued energy policy that made them extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia Technically from the EU27 only Germany, Austria, Italy, Czechia, Slovakia, and Bulgaria are the ones actually dependent on Russian Gas (6 out of 27 nations). It's important to not generalize. Also most of the EU's protectionism is around making sure we have a Farming sector for food security and Food standards for Food Safety. I don't have any issue with being 'protected' from clorinated chicken. On military spending all EU countries spend at least half of the target 2% of GDP from Nato, only Luxembourg is below that. In comparison the US spends about 7% of GDP but let's not be naive that this is very much catalyzed by Military Industrial complex lobbying rather than some deep desire of preserving world order.
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  So you're waving "at least half" as some kind of virtual compliance? How does this sound: "Of our 12 year-olds tested, at least half are reading at grade level!" One percent of GDP is a lot. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293562/expenditure-on-military-defense-as-gdp-share-in-the-european-union-eu-27/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293562/expenditure-on-m...
- TMWNN 4y ago
  >On military spending all EU countries spend at least half of the target 2% of GDP from Nato, only Luxembourg is below that. I think this wins the Copium Award for the month.
- _nalply 4y ago
  > Technically from the EU27 only Germany, Austria, Italy, Czechia, Slovakia, and Bulgaria are the ones actually dependent on Russian Gas (6 out of 27 nations). It's important to not generalize. And Switzerland. Switzerland is not a member of the EU but is Europe, and its economy (and culture) is strongly interconnected with the EU.
jrpost 4y ago
The U.S. wanted a huge piece of the oil action in Russia in 2003 and got rejected: http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/10/03/russia.yukos/ http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/10/03/russia.yukos/ It seems to me that the U.S. wanted to be "extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia". Is Nord Stream perhaps sour grapes for the U.S.?
- gilbetron 4y ago
  The US wanted to get cheap Russian oil, but that wouldn't have made them reliant on Russia, as the US has plenty of their own. It was simple economics.
  - klqwant 4y ago
    The U.S. has trouble with energy prices right now without that huge dependency. Certainly it would be worse if that deal (and other deals following) had gone through. It would not have been a 100% dependency, but neither is Nord Stream for Germany.
europeanguy 4y ago
I'm European, and never in my life have I been so embarrassed of Europe.
- rendall 4y ago
  Speaking as an American, I assure you, don't be embarrassed about anything. This article is terrible, not Europe. Its author should be embarrassed.
  - europeanguy 4y ago
    I didn't actually read the article. I was responding to parent - that's exactly how I've been feeling about this :-( > So to be clear, Europe has pursued its own protectionist economic policies for decades, neglected their military funding, and pursued energy policy that made them extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia, all while poopoo-ing the US, and now that the chickens are coming home to roost they are blaming the US for it?
    - _nalply 4y ago
      Don't fall for retrospective bias. I agree, Europe should have acted when it became clear that Putin is no saint (to be euphemistic), but Russian gas was cheap. It was a trade, give us your energy cheap and we shut up. Europe profited, households and industry had real savings, and Russia profited, invaluable money and power (especially the latter should have made Europe think, but again, retrospective bias). In other words, Europe and Russia both had gains for a long time. Now the dreams have crashed.
      - europeanguy 4y ago
        > Europe profited, households and industry had real savings (...) But you see, this is part of my disappointment with European decision makers. Yeah, great, Europe "profited" in a financial and standards of living sense. But what these people seem to miss (but the Americans and Russians know very well) is that there's a harder tier of power above finance, which is military power. Sure, it's great having good GDP, but if your neighbor has more tanks and resents you because 50% of their population wants to be you[1] then your savings and finance don't matter much. Unless big brother America comes to the rescue, as they're doing, at which point parent's comment has a lot of truth in it... [1] 50% is made up, but it's a lot.
jemmyw 4y ago
Europe actually has a significant defense capability. More trained soldiers than the US or Russia. Arms r&d, lots of aircraft, ship building etc. It doesn't spend as much as the US and only a couple of European countries have projection, namely France and the UK, and not that much at that. But the idea that Europe as a whole would be unable to defend itself against Russia's conventional military is pretty much just hawkish propaganda.
thefz 4y ago
That's very generalistic. Europe has historically been relying on North Africa for gas since a long time.

Silverback_VII 4y ago

factsarelolz 4y ago
- boringg 4y ago
  Also maybe Ukraine would be Russia right now.
amanaplanacanal 4y ago
Ukraine is not allowed to choose its own alliances? Strangely it’s never Ukraine complaining about this, it’s always Russia and Russian apologists.
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  There is simply no future for European countries with a hostile Russia in the neighbourhood. From the US perspective, the war and the nukes are far away but that's not the case in Europe...
  - kodyo 4y ago
    Step 1. Make Russia hostile.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Taking defensive measures or creating new alliances for protection is not as hostile as invading a country. Especially after Crimea. You're basically telling countries "If you try to prepare for war, we'll attack you. The best thing to do is be as unprepared as possible with as few allies"
      - Normille 4y ago
        >You're basically telling countries "If you try to prepare for war, we'll attack you. The best thing to do is be as unprepared as possible with as few allies" Glad to hear you support Iran's and North Korea's nuclear programmes.
        themitigating 4y ago
        So how do defensive nuclear weapons work?
        tsimionescu 4y ago
        You have a nuke, so people don't invade your territory for fear you might use it.
- nix23 4y ago
  Cuba was not allowed to station Nuclear weapons right?
  - mopsi 4y ago
    Who's stationing nuclear weapons anywhere? There is no need nor any will for that. It isn't 1962 anymore, modern missiles are intercontinental.
    - nix23 4y ago
      >>U.S.-owned nuclear weapons stored in five NATO member states across six bases: Kleine Brogel in Belgium, Büchel Air Base in Germany, Aviano and Ghedi Air Bases in Italy, Volkel Air Base in the Netherlands, and Incirlik in Turkey. https://armscontrolcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/NATO_NSNW_factsheet.pdf https://armscontrolcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/NAT... And i don't even talk about "shields" that fire the nuclear competition until today. >modern missiles are intercontinental. No those are the old missiles, easy detectable starts and "lot's" of time for countermeasures.
themitigating 4y ago
How did the US interfere in Ukraine? They already lost part of their country in a previous war with Russia and now when they seek alliances with the US you think that's being forced upon them? It's most logical thing to do and has proven correct since Putin invaded again.
ksidudwbw 4y ago
Even if US/CIA did push a coup in Ukraine, Russia should have foreseen it and counter acted it. Intelligence operations is a thing and you can't start genociding just because you sucked at basic intelligence work in neighbouring countries.
- yucky 4y ago
  > Even if US/CIA did push a coup in Ukraine, Russia should have foreseen it and counter acted it. They did, which is how they ended up taking Crimea.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Is there evidence of this coup?
    - yucky 4y ago
      Assuming that you're asking this in good faith and would like to read more from reliable sources, here are a handful of them from across the political spectrum: "Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call" - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 "The CIA And FBI Are Reportedly Advising Ukraine As Pro-Russia Separatists Spread Across The Country" - https://www.businessinsider.com/cia-and-fbi-reportedly-advising-ukraine-2014-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/cia-and-fbi-reportedly-advis... "Pierre Omidyar co-funded Ukraine revolution groups with US government, documents show" - https://pandodaily.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-ukraine-revolution-groups-with-us-government-documents-show/ https://pandodaily.com/2014/02/28/pierre-omidyar-co-funded-u... Our use of CIA/State Dept Tech Camp to help foment revolution, video posted by US embassy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpIoBUDuL3U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpIoBUDuL3U (also see this for background on how we use the program elsewhere: https://www.fastcompany.com/1744389/hillary-clintons-senior-tech-advisor-talks-radical-global-citizenship https://www.fastcompany.com/1744389/hillary-clintons-senior-... "Washington Was Behind Ukraine Coup: Obama admits that US “Brokered a Deal” in Support of “Regime Change”" - https://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-was-behind-ukraine-coup-obama-admits-that-us-brokered-a-deal-in-support-of-regime-change/5429142 https://www.globalresearch.ca/washington-was-behind-ukraine-... "How and why the U.S. Government Perpetrated the 2014 Coup in Ukraine" - https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-government-perpetrated-the-2014-coup-in-ukraine/ https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/06/04/how-and-why-the-u-s-go... "In the rapidly worsening Ukraine fiasco, the U.S. is reaping exactly what it sowed" - https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in-the-rapidly-worsening-ukraine-fiasco-the-us-is-reaping-exactly-what-it-sowed/ https://www.salon.com/2022/02/02/in-the-rapidly-worsening-uk... "A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War" - https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia... "The 2014 coup in Ukraine" - https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine https://www.wsws.org/en/topics/event/2014-coup-ukraine "The United States Is Reaping What It Sowed in Ukraine" - https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-benjamin-davies-220201/ https://progressive.org/latest/us-reaping-sowed-in-ukraine-b... "Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault" - https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-t...

whearyou 4y ago

Sounds about right

lo_zamoyski 4y ago

The headline should read "Western Europe". A couple of Western European officials don't speak for all Europeans, as much as they might want to or pretend to. Perhaps the Cold War prejudice of drawing the line between Western Europe ("really real" Europe) and Central/Eastern Europe (terra incognita) still persists. But consider Poland[0]. [0] https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-military-superpower-poland-army/ https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-military-superpower-p...

profstasiak 4y ago
what is the point of your linked article?
blub 4y ago
But those officials do speak for the two strongest economies in the EU, from which Eastern Europe also depends. And Poland’s complaining too about the prices of Norwegian gas. Turns out the government forgot to negotiate long-term contracts and they have to pay market prices.
- lo_zamoyski 4y ago
  Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Poland has only rosy things to say about the US (it doesn't). But we may speak about varying degrees of criticism, especially in context. Polish spending on American military equipment (but not only: see S. Korean purchases) and energy technology (Bechtel/Westinghouse, for example) has been increasing. Even before the war, at least some diplomats were disappointed with the high prices being negotiated for military equipment (I can recall such criticisms as far back as the Kwasniewski presidency), but Poland continues to negotiate and make new US purchases, and intends to increase military spending from 2.4% to 5% (see article linked in my original post). The terms under which American presence in Poland were negotiated are also very favorable for the US. In fact, terms are in general favorable for the US, even if it comes at a significant cost to Poland (I cannot judge how optimal the political/diplomatic calculus is). My point is that I have not seen evidence of any uptick in Polish criticism beyond the usual airing of grievances. Of course, if that has happened, and military contractors are raising prices artificially or ridiculously, I would kindly ask for a reference. W.r.t. Norwegian gas, yes, I recall several months ago, the Polish prime minister did indeed criticize Norway, but I thought we were talking about new EU criticism of the US? In another comment, I did explicitly refrain from commenting on price gouging surrounding gas as I don't know to what degree that is occurring (my original post was specifically related to defense, which perhaps was not clear except by implication given the link).

Kukumber 4y ago

France chose to massively invest in nuclear Energy thanks to De Gaulle, he wasn't pro-american Germany/Poland were all pro-american, so it's wrong to say "and pursued energy policy that made them extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia, all while poopoo-ing the US", do you know how Poland hates Russia? "neglected their military funding" is also wrong, that was an american wish, the "Demilitarization of Europe" [1] Europe is in this mess because of the US, and their multiple global trade sanctions which have prevented the EU from multiplying their source of supply and policies that forced the demilitarization of Europe, we also see the continuation of it nowadays with them sending all of their ammunitions to Ukraine And it's not just with natural gas but also uranium and lithium, US/AUS companies busy in Spain mining their resources for example [2] The multiple suspicious NGOs against nuclear energy in Europe are also something interesting ;) [1] - http://www.klauslarres.org/articles-1991-2015.html http://www.klauslarres.org/articles-1991-2015.html [2] - https://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/articles/entry/locals-are-fighting-a-lithium-mine-in-spain/ https://www.earthisland.org/journal/index.php/articles/entry...

oneoff786 4y ago
Dependence on Russian oil was not the pro America choice, it was the cheapest, easiest, short term gain with a huge long tail risk that’s now popped.
AlbertCory 4y ago
OK, I looked at [1]: >While Gates never outlined what he actually meant by “demilitarization”, the U.S. Department of Defense and most analysts use the phrase when referring to the European countries’ tendency to reduce the size of their armies, navies and air force personnel and delay updating their military hardware. However, European “demilitarization” also includes the cultural reorientation of most EU nations away from militarization and an overly international activism. Thus European “demilitarization” is also a matter of attitude rather than merely a question of expenditure on military forces and hardware. There's some academic smoke-blowing for you. But let's make it simple: 2% of GDP to be spent on defense. They've agreed to do it, but until Ukraine they just refused. Was there some help from the US that they were missing? https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/07/20/how-european-countries-stand-on-2-of-gdp-defence-spending https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/07/20/how-european-c... Oh look, here's Germany coming in at 1%: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293562/expenditure-on-military-defense-as-gdp-share-in-the-european-union-eu-27/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293562/expenditure-on-m...

quyleanh 4y ago

It was win-win situation, even the protectionist policies. When it changes and one side has to take the lose, they cannot silent anymore. Btw, it's not simple like the way you talk "bad actor Russia". They all come with bad and good things, depends on the perspective. And they all have their own benefits and intends. Politics is very complicated, isn't it?

oneoff786 4y ago
Genocidal Russia should suffice for clarity

DoingIsLearning 4y ago

> Europe has pursued its own protectionist economic policies for decades, neglected their military funding, and pursued energy policy that made them extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia Technically from the EU27 only Germany, Austria, Italy, Czechia, Slovakia, and Bulgaria are the ones actually dependent on Russian Gas (6 out of 27 nations). It's important to not generalize. Also most of the EU's protectionism is around making sure we have a Farming sector for food security and Food standards for Food Safety. I don't have any issue with being 'protected' from clorinated chicken. On military spending all EU countries spend at least half of the target 2% of GDP from Nato, only Luxembourg is below that. In comparison the US spends about 7% of GDP but let's not be naive that this is very much catalyzed by Military Industrial complex lobbying rather than some deep desire of preserving world order.

AlbertCory 4y ago
So you're waving "at least half" as some kind of virtual compliance? How does this sound: "Of our 12 year-olds tested, at least half are reading at grade level!" One percent of GDP is a lot. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293562/expenditure-on-military-defense-as-gdp-share-in-the-european-union-eu-27/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293562/expenditure-on-m...
TMWNN 4y ago
>On military spending all EU countries spend at least half of the target 2% of GDP from Nato, only Luxembourg is below that. I think this wins the Copium Award for the month.
_nalply 4y ago
> Technically from the EU27 only Germany, Austria, Italy, Czechia, Slovakia, and Bulgaria are the ones actually dependent on Russian Gas (6 out of 27 nations). It's important to not generalize. And Switzerland. Switzerland is not a member of the EU but is Europe, and its economy (and culture) is strongly interconnected with the EU.

jrpost 4y ago

The U.S. wanted a huge piece of the oil action in Russia in 2003 and got rejected: http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/10/03/russia.yukos/ http://edition.cnn.com/2003/BUSINESS/10/03/russia.yukos/ It seems to me that the U.S. wanted to be "extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia". Is Nord Stream perhaps sour grapes for the U.S.?

gilbetron 4y ago
The US wanted to get cheap Russian oil, but that wouldn't have made them reliant on Russia, as the US has plenty of their own. It was simple economics.
- klqwant 4y ago
  The U.S. has trouble with energy prices right now without that huge dependency. Certainly it would be worse if that deal (and other deals following) had gone through. It would not have been a 100% dependency, but neither is Nord Stream for Germany.

europeanguy 4y ago

I'm European, and never in my life have I been so embarrassed of Europe.

rendall 4y ago
Speaking as an American, I assure you, don't be embarrassed about anything. This article is terrible, not Europe. Its author should be embarrassed.
- europeanguy 4y ago
  I didn't actually read the article. I was responding to parent - that's exactly how I've been feeling about this :-( > So to be clear, Europe has pursued its own protectionist economic policies for decades, neglected their military funding, and pursued energy policy that made them extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia, all while poopoo-ing the US, and now that the chickens are coming home to roost they are blaming the US for it?
  - _nalply 4y ago
    Don't fall for retrospective bias. I agree, Europe should have acted when it became clear that Putin is no saint (to be euphemistic), but Russian gas was cheap. It was a trade, give us your energy cheap and we shut up. Europe profited, households and industry had real savings, and Russia profited, invaluable money and power (especially the latter should have made Europe think, but again, retrospective bias). In other words, Europe and Russia both had gains for a long time. Now the dreams have crashed.
    - europeanguy 4y ago
      > Europe profited, households and industry had real savings (...) But you see, this is part of my disappointment with European decision makers. Yeah, great, Europe "profited" in a financial and standards of living sense. But what these people seem to miss (but the Americans and Russians know very well) is that there's a harder tier of power above finance, which is military power. Sure, it's great having good GDP, but if your neighbor has more tanks and resents you because 50% of their population wants to be you[1] then your savings and finance don't matter much. Unless big brother America comes to the rescue, as they're doing, at which point parent's comment has a lot of truth in it... [1] 50% is made up, but it's a lot.

jemmyw 4y ago

Europe actually has a significant defense capability. More trained soldiers than the US or Russia. Arms r&d, lots of aircraft, ship building etc. It doesn't spend as much as the US and only a couple of European countries have projection, namely France and the UK, and not that much at that. But the idea that Europe as a whole would be unable to defend itself against Russia's conventional military is pretty much just hawkish propaganda.

thefz 4y ago

That's very generalistic. Europe has historically been relying on North Africa for gas since a long time.