12 ms·

Europe accuses US of profiting from war

62 points by macleginn 4y ago

Kukumber 4y ago
Glad to see Europe waking up, 20 years too late, but something tells me that they won't learn anything and it's just a "venting moment", we'll see > "The Europeans are discernibly frustrated about the lack of prior information and consultation," said David Kleimann of the Bruegel think tank. Ukraine-Russia conflict isn't being called a "proxy war" for fun > "The Inflation Reduction Act is very worrying," said Dutch Trade Minister Liesje Schreinemacher. "The potential impact on the European economy is very big." > "The U.S. is following a domestic agenda, which is regrettably protectionist and discriminates against U.S. allies," said Tonino Picula, the European Parliament's lead person on the transatlantic relationship. > “The Inflation Reduction Act has changed everything," one EU diplomat said. "Is Washington still our ally or not?” US policies will force many EU businesses to either delocalize to the US or to shutdown, as if it was all planned, boosting the US economy, what ever it takes, god save the dollar
- fidesomnes 4y ago
- factsarelolz 4y ago
  > US policies will force many EU businesses to either delocalize to the US or to shutdown, as if it was all planned, boosting the US economy, what ever it takes, god save the dollar Always has been. There were some tin foil hat types that were saying that the goal of the Ukraine/Russia conflict was 2 fold. 1. To get rid of Putin 2. To make the EU rely on the US instead of Russia. It appears the second part is working. The more the US escalated the conflict the more power it held over the EU. Some might even say that the bombing of Nord Stream helped this endeavor. Just for prosperity. The Orange Man was laughed at and ridiculed when bring up reliance on Russian supplies. Didn't age very well. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKEycjREgPE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKEycjREgPE
  - coolbreezetft22 4y ago
    The Ukraine-Russia conflict was started by Putin lol. I guess he could have totally foiled America's plans by...not invading Ukraine Somehow, none of these conversations and theories about US-Russia proxy war and US "escalating" the conflict NEVER give any agency at all the the people of Ukraine. The US "escalated" by helping them (at their request) fight off a violent and genocidal invader?? The Orange Man was laughed at because he called Putin a "very savvy genius" who was "keeping the peace", pretty straightforward.
    - factsarelolz 4y ago
      > The US "escalated" by helping them (at their request) fight off a violent and genocidal invader?? No the “US” kept the Ukrainians away from the negotiation tables. It wasn’t until right before the midterms the US changed it tune swiftly and recommended Ukraine go to the negotiation tables. > According to multiple former senior U.S. officials we spoke with, in April 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement: Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stent https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-puti... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/world/europe/us-will-not-push-ukraine-to-reach-a-cease-fire-a-top-pentagon-official-says.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/world/europe/us-will-not-... https://progressives.house.gov/2022/10/members-of-congress-urge-proactive-u-s-diplomacy-toward-ceasefire-in-ukraine https://progressives.house.gov/2022/10/members-of-congress-u... https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/05/ukraine-russia-peace-negotiations/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/05/... https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/07/politics/us-ukraine-diplomacy https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/07/politics/us-ukraine-diplomacy
      - coolbreezetft22 4y ago
        It's been pretty clear what the terms are: Putin completely leaves Ukraine lol. Why is this so hard for people to understand?? This isn't about America, it's about the people of Ukraine. If this were all true Putin could just "own the libs in America" at anytime by withdrawing from Ukraine. It is NOT America's job to tell Ukraine what to do and what terms to accept. Get that through your conspiracy-addled head
- deleted 4y ago
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newaccount2021 4y ago
draw_down 4y ago
mytailorisrich 4y ago
Well, interestingly considering the current world events in the news, as of 2020 the 3 largest gas exporters in the world were Russia, the USA, and Qatar. There is no doubt that the USA (and Qatar) are having a great time selling gas to Europe this year.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Putin had a choice on whether to invade Ukraine. He planned this invasion, amassed troops at their border, then initiated the fighting. Even if the US is taking advantage of this what is your claim?
bart_spoon 4y ago
So to be clear, Europe has pursued its own protectionist economic policies for decades, neglected their military funding, and pursued energy policy that made them extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia, all while poopoo-ing the US, and now that the chickens are coming home to roost they are blaming the US for it?
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  - factsarelolz 4y ago
    - boringg 4y ago
      Also maybe Ukraine would be Russia right now.
  - amanaplanacanal 4y ago
    Ukraine is not allowed to choose its own alliances? Strangely it’s never Ukraine complaining about this, it’s always Russia and Russian apologists.
    - Silverback_VII 4y ago
      There is simply no future for European countries with a hostile Russia in the neighbourhood. From the US perspective, the war and the nukes are far away but that's not the case in Europe...
      - kodyo 4y ago
        Step 1. Make Russia hostile.
        4y ago
m000 4y ago
I was to watch a movie tonight, but instead I'm making popcorn and staying on HN.
Veen 4y ago
The U.S. acts in its own best interests, as do all countries. If they happen to coincide with UK and EU interests, then great. If not, tough luck. The surprising thing is that politicians on this side of the Atlantic are naive enough to believe otherwise.
- constantcrying 4y ago
  >The U.S. acts in its own best interests, as do all countries. Please inform me how Germany is acting in its best interest in terms of its energy policy.
  - Veen 4y ago
    That's a symptom of the naiveté. We have a generation of politicians who have utterly failed to plan for local energy resources because they assumed they could rely on external sources and so it was in their economic interests to invest elsewhere. Perhaps I should have said 'all countries act in what their elites believe is their best interest'.
  - AlbertCory 4y ago
    How about becoming dependent on known bad actor Russia for gas, and having an ex-Chancellor on the board of Rozneft? https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/20/ex-german-chancellor-nord-stream-ceo-resign-from-rosneft-board-a77749 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/20/ex-german-chancell...
    - TurboHaskal 4y ago
      Germans could be dumb or corrupt. It could also be that they intended to make Russia dependent on them by becoming a customer too essential to lose. These kinds of relationships go both ways. Either way, this made Uncle Sam mad.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      How is the German government responsible for what an ex-Chancellor does? Was this position granted directly by the German government or is it some sort of diplomatic thing?
bannedbybros 4y ago
creato 4y ago
Shipping gas without a pipeline is expensive and there is limited capacity to do so on both ends. What is Europe expecting? Massive subsidies from the US on its gas exports?
- klamp 4y ago
  - boringg 4y ago
    Deep conspiracy right here.
    - WanderPanda 4y ago
    - kodyo 4y ago
      Somebody blew it up. There was a conspiracy behind it.
      - boringg 4y ago
        Attributing it to the US is deep conspiracy.
    - tsimionescu 4y ago
      The US is the most likely culprit, though, isn't it? Clear means and motive, and they even publicly theatened to stop NS2 if Germany doesn't. Russia is the next possibility, but it requires much more complicated conspiracies to explain why they would blow up their own massive infrastructure project. Either way, perhaps some day the results of Sweden's investigation will be made public, and we won't have to guess.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    There's no evidence of who destroyed it and just because it would benefit a country doesn't mean that country blew it up. Motivation, especially one as generic as money, is not a substitute replacement for evidence. Sweden is currently investigating it https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/sweden-says-nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-confirmed-as-sabotage/ https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/sweden-says-nord-stream-p...
factsarelolz 4y ago
There were some tin foil hat types that were saying that the goal of the Ukraine/Russia conflict was 2 fold. 1. To get rid of Putin 2. To make the EU rely on the US instead of Russia. It appears the second part is working. The more the US escalated the conflict the more power it held over the EU. Some might even say that the bombing of Nord Stream helped this endeavor. Just for prosperity. The Orange Man was laughed at and ridiculed when bring up reliance on Russian supplies. Didn't age very well. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKEycjREgPE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKEycjREgPE
- Tade0 4y ago
  The Orange Man was a little too obvious in his pursuit of selling this 4x as expensive gas - that's why he was ridiculed.
  - ren_engineer 4y ago
    Trump wanted an actual pipeline which would have made the natural gas far cheaper for Europe and warned that Russia couldn't be trusted. He also told NATO countries to hit their 2% GDP defense spending goals so that they could defend against Russia. Everybody laughed and said Russia had changed and could be trusted completely
- themitigating 4y ago
  Putin invaded Ukraine to get rid of himself?
kome 4y ago
duh, of course the war in Ukraine is such a good business for the US: both its energy industry and its defense industrial complex. to me, it is OK that the US acts following its own best interests; but it's much more problematic that EU countries acts against their own interests. But, long term, that's ok: long term this hardship will make EU economies more independent, we are reducing the use fossil fuels so incredibility fast, making our houses more isolated from heat and cold. So perhaps we might still winning the long game.
- Tade0 4y ago
  Looking at this inflation-adjusted chart: https://www.macrotrends.net/2478/natural-gas-prices-historical-chart https://www.macrotrends.net/2478/natural-gas-prices-historic... Gas isn't actually expensive now, it's just that between now and 2015 it was unusually cheap. We shouldn't have gotten this used to this obviously temporary situation.
fallingfrog 4y ago
klamp 4y ago
Of course. The U.S. has always wanted to dominate energy sales to Europe. The conflict is very much about dominance in the Caspian Sea: https://www.heritage.org/europe/report/time-us-strategy-the-caspian https://www.heritage.org/europe/report/time-us-strategy-the-... "The importance that Russia places on the Caspian can also help explain, at least in part, its determination to occupy Crimea and fully control the Sea of Azov. One of the two canals connecting the Caspian to the outside world is the Volga–Don Canal, which links the Caspian Sea with the Sea of Azov. In the past year Russia has been using the Volga–Don Canal more often to move warships between the Caspian Sea and the Sea of Azov,41" Both the U.S. and Russia want influence in a region, so a proxy war ensues.
lnsru 4y ago
What Europe did is plain stupid. Germany cut the gas supply and is trying to catch up. Gas and electricity prices are skyrocketing. Like from 300€ a month to 1000€ a month for an older house. It would be clever to buy bad Russian gas for one more year and use that saved money for installing renewables. Whole world is benefiting selling energy resources for sick prices. It’s not that US is somehow profiting. It’s clear, that Europe simply lost by playing not wise.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
  Hmm, yes, if you look at it through a prism of EU as a united front, which, well, it is not. EU is a lot of things, but it has been under tremendous pressure to withstand various growing pains. Remember that it started as an economic union that slowly started to evolve into something resembling region umbrella. Now, once you look at the course of events through the prism of what is benefiting Germany, it is clear that those were set to benefit Germany. It just so happened, that political situation around the globe took a turn ( I am not certain what was the real watershed moment here, but Poland in particular was talking about [Russia and Germany working together in this fasion undermining EU energy policy] way before, say, Trump ; not that Obama was not aware of it either, but he was content considering Russia a 'regional power' ). Everything I just said is public source. Europe can still make it work, but it will actually take a real threat for it coalesce and I am surprised that did not happen yet. I am starting to wonder if this is exactly how WW2 started. People not understanding what is going on and betting that it will just dissipate on its own.
- BillyTheKing 4y ago
  Germany did not cut its gas-supply - Russia cut the gas-supply to Germany. Europe did not sanction Russian gas (they sanctioned Russian oil among other things). So this was not really German policy, it's Russian policy to cut gas-supplies to Europe.
photochemsyn 4y ago
"As they attempt to reduce their reliance on Russian energy, EU countries are turning to gas from the U.S. instead — but the price Europeans pay is almost four times as high as the same fuel costs in America." Well, that was the plan, really. In late 2021 the industry-business press had more than a few articles bemoaning the US natural gas supply glut, and that was a a theme Russia's energy sector complained about as well, see this from 2020: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gazprom-europe-idUKKBN26X1EN https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gazprom-europe-idUKKBN26X... Sure Covid had something to do with it, but LNG is not jet fuel. Clearly, there was a battle shaping up over who was going to get to 'light Europe', and that was tied into finances and balance-of-payment concerns - i.e. the USA doesn't care if Gulf Arab states sell gas and oil to Europe, because those are US client states who recycle sales money back into the US banking system. Russia doesn't do that, so it's a competitor, not a collaborator. Europe could have acted differently - it could have built out renewables to a greater extent starting two decades ago (technologically, that was feasible), or it could have rejected the oil-finance sanctions on Russia over the Ukraine war - so they did make their own bed. What, were they relying on the beneficial warm-heartedness of Wall Street? Did they expect the fossil fuel executives and finance oligarchs to decline a giant surge in profits so poor Europeans wouldn't have to pay more to heat their homes? Greedy sociopaths are not known for such benevolent behavior, even if they pay millions to PR experts in an attempt to convince the public of their altruistic spirits.
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locallost 4y ago
There's nothing wrong with it per se, but fact of the matter is, the US has profited from the current situation. So the question becomes at what point the other side realizes it's a bad marriage and wants out. It's as simple as that. And there's nothing wrong with that either. I don't think it was a coincidence that Olaf Scholz went on a visit to China recently. Bottom line, being an ally means nothing other than mutual support. If the West European allies are not that important then the US should plow ahead, but the consequence will be those countries will look elsewhere for partners.
- parkingrift 4y ago
  >If the West European allies are not that important then the US should plow ahead, but the consequence will be those countries will look elsewhere for partners. This comment brought to you by the year 2008. Europe did look elsewhere for partners, and cozied up with Russia. I can’t wait to see how Europeans shoot themselves in the foot this time.
rendall 4y ago
I suspect that Politico exaggerates the tensions.
- nosianu 4y ago
  I think the headline is a misrepresentation. Even in the article they quickly switch to a completely different topic, increasing protectionist subsidies. Those are the actual issue. The article mixes two different things and generates a headline leaning on the much less important one from this unfortunate mix as far as I can tell. The other part of the article is what's making headlines here: The protectionist subsidies that the US plans to set up and increase. That is the key. Example: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-05/eu-warns-us-of-potential-retaliation-in-green-subsidies-dispute https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-05/eu-warns-... - but also subsidies for various industries, e.g. chip makers, or batteries: https://www.ft.com/content/59a8d135-3477-4d0a-8d12-20c7ef94be07 https://www.ft.com/content/59a8d135-3477-4d0a-8d12-20c7ef94b... The Ukraine and energy part does not create any significant amount of headlines here, if any. It's been mentioned but as an aside and without much emotion or blame, usually always followed by the comment section siding with UK and America for actually helping Ukraine. Gas prices are part of the industry issues but I have yet to see a single article, except the one linked here, that would blame the US for those price increases. Also, our recent headlines have all been "German economy doing much better than expected", "gas reserves full", "LNG tankers line up in front of Europe", replacing a lot of previous more alarmist headlines. I am unaware of any significant opinions against US profits from this war, it's taken as incidental. Russia started the war and Russia is acting FAR outside of an acceptable range with their extreme brutality. None of that is the US's fault - and arming Ukraine is mostly seen as good and justified, with no regard to any profits US might make accept from some few comments, usually heavily downvoted in the majority of our German mass media websites. My perspective comes from following at the very least Die zeit and Der Spiegel, and occasionally Die Welt and FAZ, all of this year, at least noticing most headlines if they are Ukraine related. I think that's most of the big German sites, only "Bild" missing as a major player.
  - rendall 4y ago
    I pretty much agree with everything you say here. This aligns with my understanding.
sergiosgc 4y ago
The article is baseless and at odds with what I see as publicly stated political opinion and, more importantly, public (EU population) opinion. The article is baseless because it echoes unnamed sources. "Top EU officials", but not one name underwrites the citations about bickering, with the notable exception about gas price negotiation discourse, which is natural and expected. Now, let's assume the article is true: Europe is suffering because of the Russia-Ukraine war, and top officials resent US profiteering. The solution is obvious: arm Ukraine. The stronger Ukraine is, the quicker this war ends. The whole narrative around USA creating this war, and USA prolonging this war makes no sense. Russia created this war, and the EU can end the war this winter: just provide as many weapons as USA does. Note: I'm European and living in Europe.
- gitanovic 4y ago
  Not saying that it should be done, let me state it before. But the obvious solution to the current crisis would be actually to stop arming Ukraine... It might just cause a larger more serious crisis later though Also european living in Europe
  - Invictus0 4y ago
    It's like saying the solution to climate change is to turn on the air conditioning. Why even say something so stupid.
    - gitanovic 4y ago
      Why is it stupid? Please I am too stupid to understand why what I said is stupid Russia doesn't give gas to Europe as retaliation for arming Ukraine, stop arming Ukraine and they will give gas to Europe. I also said that this is not what I would do, because I think you should stand up to bullies. Now, please enlighten me with all your wisdom, why what I said is stupid? And what does it have to do with climate change? That comparison IS stupid
      - hnbad 4y ago
blibble 4y ago
ah yes, it's the US fault the corrupt German politicians made Germany entirely dependent on Russian gas even Trump understood this was a stupid idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu57D9YcIk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu57D9YcIk0
samtho 4y ago
You can’t light yourself on fire just to keep others warm. Additionally, there is a reason why during the flight safety brief they ask that you put your own mask on before helping others. If you are incapacitated, you cannot provide any meaningful support sans perhaps your body being eaten or actually lit on fire, but that’s getting kind of dark. Not saying that everything what the US is doing is great for everyone but it’s important to acknowledge that there are economic problems latent and otherwise, that the US must address locally in order to even engage in external affairs. We are using monetary, legislative, and executive tools to do this because those are the levers we can pull. It is not going to be “optimal” but is probably the best we got right now. I don’t think [western] Europe is taking the care it needs for itself, but this difference in opinion can be attributed to differences in culture, e.g. Americans tends to be more individually-minded and European societies tend to focus on the collective. Americans do, by and large, support efforts to support Ukraine and the Europe, even some of the most conservative people I know, ones who vehemently disagree with European governance/values, still very strongly support the cause of assisting our friends across the pond. It sucks that we’re having to deal with artificially induced inflation and grifters profiting off of this, but refinement of policy to prevent that takes years that Ukraine and the EU do not have to wait. In my mind, people’s lives, freedoms, and their country they love are at stake and Americans who otherwise would not have given Ukraine a second thought before have found a deep respect and kinship for their resolve, determination, military ability, and bravery being faced with what was (at least at one time) one of the most powerful military forces in the world. Money can be replaced, refunded, sent as relief, but lives cannot.
Invictus0 4y ago
Absolutely terrible reporting. > "The Inflation Reduction Act is very worrying," said Dutch Trade Minister Liesje Schreinemacher. "The potential impact on the European economy is very big." Which parts specifically? > As they attempt to reduce their reliance on Russian energy, EU countries are turning to gas from the U.S. instead — but the price Europeans pay is almost four times as high as the same fuel costs in America. Ok...? The US supplies less than 25% of the EU's energy, it's not America's fault that the EU made shitty energy policy decisions. This sentence makes it sound like America's fault. > Then there’s the likely surge in orders for American-made military kit as European armies run short after sending weapons to Ukraine. A 'surge'? EU countries have been far short of their commitment to spend 2% of GDP on their military for decades. So now they're complaining about needing to replace whatever aging junk they offloaded to Ukraine instead of freeloading off of Article 5.
- miguelazo 4y ago
  > Which parts specifically? One could start with the exclusion of electric vehicles and batteries that aren’t produced in the US from the tax credit. Effective immediately as of mid-August. Really great for VW, don’t you think? But I imagine there are many other examples.
hackandthink 4y ago
Hauke Ritz and Ulrike Guérot have a cinemascope version of this accusation. All an evil plot of the USA. "From American sources, they deduce that the Russian-Ukrainian war is a long-prepared American proxy war." https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endspiel_Europa https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endspiel_Europa
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vt85 4y ago
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kodyo 4y ago
What’s the point of having a unipolar corporatist oligarchy and staging regional border disputes if you can’t profit from it?
rado 4y ago
What a ridiculous accusation. They would never do such things.
Normille 4y ago
>The fact is, if you look at it soberly, the country that is most profiting from this war is the U.S. because they are selling more gas and at higher prices, and because they are selling more weapons,” one senior official told POLITICO. Incredible. It's almost like some people in the EU have belatedly woken up and begun to question the wisdom of destroyng the economies of an entire continent, to benefit the US. Normille. Seven months ago[0]... >The US will be rubbing its hands with glee. They must have thought all their Christmases had come at once, when Russia invaded Ukraine * Russia ostracised by Europe * More US arms sales to Europe * More US gas sales to Europe * More European acolytes to join their US-led military bloc The only difficult part must be keeping a straight face while pretending to be outraged by it all. Well, here's a second chance for you to downvote, if you missed out last time. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31159748#31160290 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31159748#31160290
hereme888 4y ago
I believe no other country is individually spending tens of billions of dollars helping Ukraine. So if the US found a way to make a profit to recover some of the costs of preventing the expanse of communism and brutal killing of innocent people, while weakening a nation threatening the world with nuclear war, kudos to them.
Ptchd 4y ago
I guess Europe doesn't understand the purpose of war...
t0bia_s 4y ago
Rising price of gas is not because of Putin's invasion. I've got increased bill by 600% in 11/2021, four month before invasion. Politics who blames war for rising prices clearly lies, period. Ideologies like green deal and drastic lockdowns shake prices.

62 points by macleginn 4y ago

Glad to see Europe waking up, 20 years too late, but something tells me that they won't learn anything and it's just a "venting moment", we'll see > "The Europeans are discernibly frustrated about the lack of prior information and consultation," said David Kleimann of the Bruegel think tank. Ukraine-Russia conflict isn't being called a "proxy war" for fun > "The Inflation Reduction Act is very worrying," said Dutch Trade Minister Liesje Schreinemacher. "The potential impact on the European economy is very big." > "The U.S. is following a domestic agenda, which is regrettably protectionist and discriminates against U.S. allies," said Tonino Picula, the European Parliament's lead person on the transatlantic relationship. > “The Inflation Reduction Act has changed everything," one EU diplomat said. "Is Washington still our ally or not?” US policies will force many EU businesses to either delocalize to the US or to shutdown, as if it was all planned, boosting the US economy, what ever it takes, god save the dollar

fidesomnes 4y ago
factsarelolz 4y ago
> US policies will force many EU businesses to either delocalize to the US or to shutdown, as if it was all planned, boosting the US economy, what ever it takes, god save the dollar Always has been. There were some tin foil hat types that were saying that the goal of the Ukraine/Russia conflict was 2 fold. 1. To get rid of Putin 2. To make the EU rely on the US instead of Russia. It appears the second part is working. The more the US escalated the conflict the more power it held over the EU. Some might even say that the bombing of Nord Stream helped this endeavor. Just for prosperity. The Orange Man was laughed at and ridiculed when bring up reliance on Russian supplies. Didn't age very well. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKEycjREgPE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKEycjREgPE
- coolbreezetft22 4y ago
  The Ukraine-Russia conflict was started by Putin lol. I guess he could have totally foiled America's plans by...not invading Ukraine Somehow, none of these conversations and theories about US-Russia proxy war and US "escalating" the conflict NEVER give any agency at all the the people of Ukraine. The US "escalated" by helping them (at their request) fight off a violent and genocidal invader?? The Orange Man was laughed at because he called Putin a "very savvy genius" who was "keeping the peace", pretty straightforward.
  - factsarelolz 4y ago
    > The US "escalated" by helping them (at their request) fight off a violent and genocidal invader?? No the “US” kept the Ukrainians away from the negotiation tables. It wasn’t until right before the midterms the US changed it tune swiftly and recommended Ukraine go to the negotiation tables. > According to multiple former senior U.S. officials we spoke with, in April 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators appeared to have tentatively agreed on the outlines of a negotiated interim settlement: Russia would withdraw to its position on February 23, when it controlled part of the Donbas region and all of Crimea, and in exchange, Ukraine would promise not to seek NATO membership and instead receive security guarantees from a number of countries. https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-putin-wants-fiona-hill-angela-stent https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-federation/world-puti... https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/world/europe/us-will-not-push-ukraine-to-reach-a-cease-fire-a-top-pentagon-official-says.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/14/world/europe/us-will-not-... https://progressives.house.gov/2022/10/members-of-congress-urge-proactive-u-s-diplomacy-toward-ceasefire-in-ukraine https://progressives.house.gov/2022/10/members-of-congress-u... https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/05/ukraine-russia-peace-negotiations/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/05/... https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/07/politics/us-ukraine-diplomacy https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/07/politics/us-ukraine-diplomacy
    - coolbreezetft22 4y ago
      It's been pretty clear what the terms are: Putin completely leaves Ukraine lol. Why is this so hard for people to understand?? This isn't about America, it's about the people of Ukraine. If this were all true Putin could just "own the libs in America" at anytime by withdrawing from Ukraine. It is NOT America's job to tell Ukraine what to do and what terms to accept. Get that through your conspiracy-addled head
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newaccount2021 4y ago

draw_down 4y ago

mytailorisrich 4y ago

Well, interestingly considering the current world events in the news, as of 2020 the 3 largest gas exporters in the world were Russia, the USA, and Qatar. There is no doubt that the USA (and Qatar) are having a great time selling gas to Europe this year.

themitigating 4y ago
Putin had a choice on whether to invade Ukraine. He planned this invasion, amassed troops at their border, then initiated the fighting. Even if the US is taking advantage of this what is your claim?

bart_spoon 4y ago

So to be clear, Europe has pursued its own protectionist economic policies for decades, neglected their military funding, and pursued energy policy that made them extremely reliant on known bad actor Russia, all while poopoo-ing the US, and now that the chickens are coming home to roost they are blaming the US for it?

Silverback_VII 4y ago
- factsarelolz 4y ago
  - boringg 4y ago
    Also maybe Ukraine would be Russia right now.
- amanaplanacanal 4y ago
  Ukraine is not allowed to choose its own alliances? Strangely it’s never Ukraine complaining about this, it’s always Russia and Russian apologists.
  - Silverback_VII 4y ago
    There is simply no future for European countries with a hostile Russia in the neighbourhood. From the US perspective, the war and the nukes are far away but that's not the case in Europe...
    - kodyo 4y ago
      Step 1. Make Russia hostile.
      - 4y ago

m000 4y ago

I was to watch a movie tonight, but instead I'm making popcorn and staying on HN.

Veen 4y ago

The U.S. acts in its own best interests, as do all countries. If they happen to coincide with UK and EU interests, then great. If not, tough luck. The surprising thing is that politicians on this side of the Atlantic are naive enough to believe otherwise.

constantcrying 4y ago
>The U.S. acts in its own best interests, as do all countries. Please inform me how Germany is acting in its best interest in terms of its energy policy.
- Veen 4y ago
  That's a symptom of the naiveté. We have a generation of politicians who have utterly failed to plan for local energy resources because they assumed they could rely on external sources and so it was in their economic interests to invest elsewhere. Perhaps I should have said 'all countries act in what their elites believe is their best interest'.
- AlbertCory 4y ago
  How about becoming dependent on known bad actor Russia for gas, and having an ex-Chancellor on the board of Rozneft? https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/20/ex-german-chancellor-nord-stream-ceo-resign-from-rosneft-board-a77749 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/20/ex-german-chancell...
  - TurboHaskal 4y ago
    Germans could be dumb or corrupt. It could also be that they intended to make Russia dependent on them by becoming a customer too essential to lose. These kinds of relationships go both ways. Either way, this made Uncle Sam mad.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    How is the German government responsible for what an ex-Chancellor does? Was this position granted directly by the German government or is it some sort of diplomatic thing?

bannedbybros 4y ago

creato 4y ago

Shipping gas without a pipeline is expensive and there is limited capacity to do so on both ends. What is Europe expecting? Massive subsidies from the US on its gas exports?

klamp 4y ago
- boringg 4y ago
  Deep conspiracy right here.
  - WanderPanda 4y ago
  - kodyo 4y ago
    Somebody blew it up. There was a conspiracy behind it.
    - boringg 4y ago
      Attributing it to the US is deep conspiracy.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    The US is the most likely culprit, though, isn't it? Clear means and motive, and they even publicly theatened to stop NS2 if Germany doesn't. Russia is the next possibility, but it requires much more complicated conspiracies to explain why they would blow up their own massive infrastructure project. Either way, perhaps some day the results of Sweden's investigation will be made public, and we won't have to guess.
- themitigating 4y ago
  There's no evidence of who destroyed it and just because it would benefit a country doesn't mean that country blew it up. Motivation, especially one as generic as money, is not a substitute replacement for evidence. Sweden is currently investigating it https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/sweden-says-nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-confirmed-as-sabotage/ https://freebeacon.com/latest-news/sweden-says-nord-stream-p...

factsarelolz 4y ago

There were some tin foil hat types that were saying that the goal of the Ukraine/Russia conflict was 2 fold. 1. To get rid of Putin 2. To make the EU rely on the US instead of Russia. It appears the second part is working. The more the US escalated the conflict the more power it held over the EU. Some might even say that the bombing of Nord Stream helped this endeavor. Just for prosperity. The Orange Man was laughed at and ridiculed when bring up reliance on Russian supplies. Didn't age very well. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKEycjREgPE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eKEycjREgPE

Tade0 4y ago
The Orange Man was a little too obvious in his pursuit of selling this 4x as expensive gas - that's why he was ridiculed.
- ren_engineer 4y ago
  Trump wanted an actual pipeline which would have made the natural gas far cheaper for Europe and warned that Russia couldn't be trusted. He also told NATO countries to hit their 2% GDP defense spending goals so that they could defend against Russia. Everybody laughed and said Russia had changed and could be trusted completely
themitigating 4y ago
Putin invaded Ukraine to get rid of himself?

kome 4y ago

duh, of course the war in Ukraine is such a good business for the US: both its energy industry and its defense industrial complex. to me, it is OK that the US acts following its own best interests; but it's much more problematic that EU countries acts against their own interests. But, long term, that's ok: long term this hardship will make EU economies more independent, we are reducing the use fossil fuels so incredibility fast, making our houses more isolated from heat and cold. So perhaps we might still winning the long game.

Tade0 4y ago
Looking at this inflation-adjusted chart: https://www.macrotrends.net/2478/natural-gas-prices-historical-chart https://www.macrotrends.net/2478/natural-gas-prices-historic... Gas isn't actually expensive now, it's just that between now and 2015 it was unusually cheap. We shouldn't have gotten this used to this obviously temporary situation.

fallingfrog 4y ago

klamp 4y ago

Of course. The U.S. has always wanted to dominate energy sales to Europe. The conflict is very much about dominance in the Caspian Sea: https://www.heritage.org/europe/report/time-us-strategy-the-caspian https://www.heritage.org/europe/report/time-us-strategy-the-... "The importance that Russia places on the Caspian can also help explain, at least in part, its determination to occupy Crimea and fully control the Sea of Azov. One of the two canals connecting the Caspian to the outside world is the Volga–Don Canal, which links the Caspian Sea with the Sea of Azov. In the past year Russia has been using the Volga–Don Canal more often to move warships between the Caspian Sea and the Sea of Azov,41" Both the U.S. and Russia want influence in a region, so a proxy war ensues.

lnsru 4y ago

What Europe did is plain stupid. Germany cut the gas supply and is trying to catch up. Gas and electricity prices are skyrocketing. Like from 300€ a month to 1000€ a month for an older house. It would be clever to buy bad Russian gas for one more year and use that saved money for installing renewables. Whole world is benefiting selling energy resources for sick prices. It’s not that US is somehow profiting. It’s clear, that Europe simply lost by playing not wise.

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
Hmm, yes, if you look at it through a prism of EU as a united front, which, well, it is not. EU is a lot of things, but it has been under tremendous pressure to withstand various growing pains. Remember that it started as an economic union that slowly started to evolve into something resembling region umbrella. Now, once you look at the course of events through the prism of what is benefiting Germany, it is clear that those were set to benefit Germany. It just so happened, that political situation around the globe took a turn ( I am not certain what was the real watershed moment here, but Poland in particular was talking about [Russia and Germany working together in this fasion undermining EU energy policy] way before, say, Trump ; not that Obama was not aware of it either, but he was content considering Russia a 'regional power' ). Everything I just said is public source. Europe can still make it work, but it will actually take a real threat for it coalesce and I am surprised that did not happen yet. I am starting to wonder if this is exactly how WW2 started. People not understanding what is going on and betting that it will just dissipate on its own.
BillyTheKing 4y ago
Germany did not cut its gas-supply - Russia cut the gas-supply to Germany. Europe did not sanction Russian gas (they sanctioned Russian oil among other things). So this was not really German policy, it's Russian policy to cut gas-supplies to Europe.

photochemsyn 4y ago

"As they attempt to reduce their reliance on Russian energy, EU countries are turning to gas from the U.S. instead — but the price Europeans pay is almost four times as high as the same fuel costs in America." Well, that was the plan, really. In late 2021 the industry-business press had more than a few articles bemoaning the US natural gas supply glut, and that was a a theme Russia's energy sector complained about as well, see this from 2020: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gazprom-europe-idUKKBN26X1EN https://www.reuters.com/article/us-gazprom-europe-idUKKBN26X... Sure Covid had something to do with it, but LNG is not jet fuel. Clearly, there was a battle shaping up over who was going to get to 'light Europe', and that was tied into finances and balance-of-payment concerns - i.e. the USA doesn't care if Gulf Arab states sell gas and oil to Europe, because those are US client states who recycle sales money back into the US banking system. Russia doesn't do that, so it's a competitor, not a collaborator. Europe could have acted differently - it could have built out renewables to a greater extent starting two decades ago (technologically, that was feasible), or it could have rejected the oil-finance sanctions on Russia over the Ukraine war - so they did make their own bed. What, were they relying on the beneficial warm-heartedness of Wall Street? Did they expect the fossil fuel executives and finance oligarchs to decline a giant surge in profits so poor Europeans wouldn't have to pay more to heat their homes? Greedy sociopaths are not known for such benevolent behavior, even if they pay millions to PR experts in an attempt to convince the public of their altruistic spirits.

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locallost 4y ago

There's nothing wrong with it per se, but fact of the matter is, the US has profited from the current situation. So the question becomes at what point the other side realizes it's a bad marriage and wants out. It's as simple as that. And there's nothing wrong with that either. I don't think it was a coincidence that Olaf Scholz went on a visit to China recently. Bottom line, being an ally means nothing other than mutual support. If the West European allies are not that important then the US should plow ahead, but the consequence will be those countries will look elsewhere for partners.

parkingrift 4y ago
>If the West European allies are not that important then the US should plow ahead, but the consequence will be those countries will look elsewhere for partners. This comment brought to you by the year 2008. Europe did look elsewhere for partners, and cozied up with Russia. I can’t wait to see how Europeans shoot themselves in the foot this time.

rendall 4y ago

I suspect that Politico exaggerates the tensions.

nosianu 4y ago
I think the headline is a misrepresentation. Even in the article they quickly switch to a completely different topic, increasing protectionist subsidies. Those are the actual issue. The article mixes two different things and generates a headline leaning on the much less important one from this unfortunate mix as far as I can tell. The other part of the article is what's making headlines here: The protectionist subsidies that the US plans to set up and increase. That is the key. Example: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-05/eu-warns-us-of-potential-retaliation-in-green-subsidies-dispute https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-05/eu-warns-... - but also subsidies for various industries, e.g. chip makers, or batteries: https://www.ft.com/content/59a8d135-3477-4d0a-8d12-20c7ef94be07 https://www.ft.com/content/59a8d135-3477-4d0a-8d12-20c7ef94b... The Ukraine and energy part does not create any significant amount of headlines here, if any. It's been mentioned but as an aside and without much emotion or blame, usually always followed by the comment section siding with UK and America for actually helping Ukraine. Gas prices are part of the industry issues but I have yet to see a single article, except the one linked here, that would blame the US for those price increases. Also, our recent headlines have all been "German economy doing much better than expected", "gas reserves full", "LNG tankers line up in front of Europe", replacing a lot of previous more alarmist headlines. I am unaware of any significant opinions against US profits from this war, it's taken as incidental. Russia started the war and Russia is acting FAR outside of an acceptable range with their extreme brutality. None of that is the US's fault - and arming Ukraine is mostly seen as good and justified, with no regard to any profits US might make accept from some few comments, usually heavily downvoted in the majority of our German mass media websites. My perspective comes from following at the very least Die zeit and Der Spiegel, and occasionally Die Welt and FAZ, all of this year, at least noticing most headlines if they are Ukraine related. I think that's most of the big German sites, only "Bild" missing as a major player.
- rendall 4y ago
  I pretty much agree with everything you say here. This aligns with my understanding.

sergiosgc 4y ago

The article is baseless and at odds with what I see as publicly stated political opinion and, more importantly, public (EU population) opinion. The article is baseless because it echoes unnamed sources. "Top EU officials", but not one name underwrites the citations about bickering, with the notable exception about gas price negotiation discourse, which is natural and expected. Now, let's assume the article is true: Europe is suffering because of the Russia-Ukraine war, and top officials resent US profiteering. The solution is obvious: arm Ukraine. The stronger Ukraine is, the quicker this war ends. The whole narrative around USA creating this war, and USA prolonging this war makes no sense. Russia created this war, and the EU can end the war this winter: just provide as many weapons as USA does. Note: I'm European and living in Europe.

gitanovic 4y ago
Not saying that it should be done, let me state it before. But the obvious solution to the current crisis would be actually to stop arming Ukraine... It might just cause a larger more serious crisis later though Also european living in Europe
- Invictus0 4y ago
  It's like saying the solution to climate change is to turn on the air conditioning. Why even say something so stupid.
  - gitanovic 4y ago
    Why is it stupid? Please I am too stupid to understand why what I said is stupid Russia doesn't give gas to Europe as retaliation for arming Ukraine, stop arming Ukraine and they will give gas to Europe. I also said that this is not what I would do, because I think you should stand up to bullies. Now, please enlighten me with all your wisdom, why what I said is stupid? And what does it have to do with climate change? That comparison IS stupid
    - hnbad 4y ago

blibble 4y ago

ah yes, it's the US fault the corrupt German politicians made Germany entirely dependent on Russian gas even Trump understood this was a stupid idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu57D9YcIk0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu57D9YcIk0

samtho 4y ago

You can’t light yourself on fire just to keep others warm. Additionally, there is a reason why during the flight safety brief they ask that you put your own mask on before helping others. If you are incapacitated, you cannot provide any meaningful support sans perhaps your body being eaten or actually lit on fire, but that’s getting kind of dark. Not saying that everything what the US is doing is great for everyone but it’s important to acknowledge that there are economic problems latent and otherwise, that the US must address locally in order to even engage in external affairs. We are using monetary, legislative, and executive tools to do this because those are the levers we can pull. It is not going to be “optimal” but is probably the best we got right now. I don’t think [western] Europe is taking the care it needs for itself, but this difference in opinion can be attributed to differences in culture, e.g. Americans tends to be more individually-minded and European societies tend to focus on the collective. Americans do, by and large, support efforts to support Ukraine and the Europe, even some of the most conservative people I know, ones who vehemently disagree with European governance/values, still very strongly support the cause of assisting our friends across the pond. It sucks that we’re having to deal with artificially induced inflation and grifters profiting off of this, but refinement of policy to prevent that takes years that Ukraine and the EU do not have to wait. In my mind, people’s lives, freedoms, and their country they love are at stake and Americans who otherwise would not have given Ukraine a second thought before have found a deep respect and kinship for their resolve, determination, military ability, and bravery being faced with what was (at least at one time) one of the most powerful military forces in the world. Money can be replaced, refunded, sent as relief, but lives cannot.

Invictus0 4y ago

Absolutely terrible reporting. > "The Inflation Reduction Act is very worrying," said Dutch Trade Minister Liesje Schreinemacher. "The potential impact on the European economy is very big." Which parts specifically? > As they attempt to reduce their reliance on Russian energy, EU countries are turning to gas from the U.S. instead — but the price Europeans pay is almost four times as high as the same fuel costs in America. Ok...? The US supplies less than 25% of the EU's energy, it's not America's fault that the EU made shitty energy policy decisions. This sentence makes it sound like America's fault. > Then there’s the likely surge in orders for American-made military kit as European armies run short after sending weapons to Ukraine. A 'surge'? EU countries have been far short of their commitment to spend 2% of GDP on their military for decades. So now they're complaining about needing to replace whatever aging junk they offloaded to Ukraine instead of freeloading off of Article 5.

miguelazo 4y ago
> Which parts specifically? One could start with the exclusion of electric vehicles and batteries that aren’t produced in the US from the tax credit. Effective immediately as of mid-August. Really great for VW, don’t you think? But I imagine there are many other examples.

hackandthink 4y ago

Hauke Ritz and Ulrike Guérot have a cinemascope version of this accusation. All an evil plot of the USA. "From American sources, they deduce that the Russian-Ukrainian war is a long-prepared American proxy war." https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endspiel_Europa https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endspiel_Europa

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vt85 4y ago

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kodyo 4y ago

What’s the point of having a unipolar corporatist oligarchy and staging regional border disputes if you can’t profit from it?

rado 4y ago

What a ridiculous accusation. They would never do such things.

Normille 4y ago

>The fact is, if you look at it soberly, the country that is most profiting from this war is the U.S. because they are selling more gas and at higher prices, and because they are selling more weapons,” one senior official told POLITICO. Incredible. It's almost like some people in the EU have belatedly woken up and begun to question the wisdom of destroyng the economies of an entire continent, to benefit the US. Normille. Seven months ago[0]... >The US will be rubbing its hands with glee. They must have thought all their Christmases had come at once, when Russia invaded Ukraine * Russia ostracised by Europe * More US arms sales to Europe * More US gas sales to Europe * More European acolytes to join their US-led military bloc The only difficult part must be keeping a straight face while pretending to be outraged by it all. Well, here's a second chance for you to downvote, if you missed out last time. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31159748#31160290 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31159748#31160290

hereme888 4y ago

I believe no other country is individually spending tens of billions of dollars helping Ukraine. So if the US found a way to make a profit to recover some of the costs of preventing the expanse of communism and brutal killing of innocent people, while weakening a nation threatening the world with nuclear war, kudos to them.

Ptchd 4y ago

I guess Europe doesn't understand the purpose of war...

t0bia_s 4y ago

Rising price of gas is not because of Putin's invasion. I've got increased bill by 600% in 11/2021, four month before invasion. Politics who blames war for rising prices clearly lies, period. Ideologies like green deal and drastic lockdowns shake prices.