4 ms·

> Where I live, this is entirely illegal It's illegal to work two jobs ? Are you sure about that? Can you point to a specific law ? It may be against the empl

> Where I live, this is entirely illegal It's illegal to work two jobs ? Are you sure about that? Can you point to a specific law ? It may be against the employment contract but I think it's totally wrong to say it's illegal. That would mean the government has legislated against having two jobs. > I am under the impression that employment contracts arent really a thing in the USA. I think for most tech companies in the USA they actually do have contracts. The contract will state things like medical benefits ...etc. They are less common for working in a local bar or suchlike.

erinnh 4y ago
I was talking about full time jobs, which these "overemployed" stories generally talk about. Its technically legal to work two jobs, but in reality it simply isnt because of employee protections. Such as its illegal to work more than 40 hours average in my country. Company cant force you to work more than 40 hours per average, and neither can you choose to. Its ok to work 50 hours in one week, but you need to work less than 40 hours another then. Its also illegal to work more than 10 hours in one day. Or have less than 11 hours between job days. (Ie. you cant stop working at 11pm and start working again at 9am the next day. Theres many other issues, such as you arent allowed to work while on holiday. So you cant work a different job while on holiday from your other job. Or the fact that basically 100% of employment contracts say the amount of hours you have to work. And telling your employer you did without doing so is fraud.
- Dave3of5 4y ago
  > Such as its illegal to work more than 40 hours average You are also confused about this law. In the EU you can't force employees to work more than these hours but it's up to the employee they can agree to work more hours if they want to. It's NOT illegal to work more than those hours. > Its also illegal to work more than 10 hours in one day Wrong again the law is that a company can't force you to work these hours. That's different from being illegal for you to work more than those hours. > Or the fact that basically 100% of employment contracts say the amount of hours you have to work. And telling your employer you did without doing so is fraud It's a breach of contract NOT fraud. You really need to actually read the rules on these protections as I think you're misinformed.
  - erinnh 4y ago
    That might be true in the EU, I have no idea. But not in Germany. An employee cannot choose to work longer than that. I still was slightly wrong. The average work hours cannot exceed 48 hours a week. But an employee is not allowed to work more than that. And it very definitely is fraud. It’s called Arbeitszeitbetrug, the „Betrug“ in that word is fraud. Source: (in German) https://www.nebenjob.de/ratgeber/3164-maximale-arbeitszeit-wie-viele-stunden-im-nebenjob-sind-zusatzlich-erlaubt https://www.nebenjob.de/ratgeber/3164-maximale-arbeitszeit-w... Ill translate the relevant part for you (you can use DeepL or something if you want to crosscheck): "Für Arbeitnehmer mit Hauptjob und Nebenjob gelten diese Arbeitszeiten - Man darf in der Regel maximal 48 Stunden die Woche arbeiten. - Wenn man (zeitweilig) die Stunden pro Tag erhöht, ist eine wöchentliche Arbeitszeit von bis zu 60 Stunden möglich, wenn innerhalb eines halben Jahres die Wochenarbeitszeit auf durchschnittlich 48 Stunden ausgeglichen wird." Translation: The following working hours are relevant for employees with main and sidejob: - You are only allowed to work maximum 48 hours per week on average - If one decides (temporarily) to increase the time worked per day, a maximum 60 hours per week is possible, as long as the average worked hours stay at 48 hours per week in a 6 month timeframe. And source for Arbeitszeitbetrug being fraud: https://beratung.de/recht/ratgeber/arbeitszeitbetrug-definition-nachweis-und-konsequenzen_fncgsd https://beratung.de/recht/ratgeber/arbeitszeitbetrug-definit...
    - Dave3of5 4y ago
      I can't interpret German legal documents correctly so I'll take your word. Note that this isn't an employee protection as it places a severe limit on your rights. It is strange this hasn't been challenged based upon the fact it contravenes Article 23(1) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights specifically "free choice of employment". That's not to say you are wrong but if working too much means you get a fine I don't think I'll ever want to work in that country. I would go so far as to say that's way worse than the limited laws in the US. I would note here that the overemployeed here is generally not work 100+ hours but working two full time jobs in 40-50 hours so they well could manage to be within that work time law. Here is a more appropriate discussion about overemployment in Germany without fraud being mentioned at all as it wouldn't be fraud if you stick to the 48 hours: https://www.mondaq.com/germany/employee-rights-labour-relations/1142176/leading-a-double-work-life-remote-work-and-dual-employment-in-germany https://www.mondaq.com/germany/employee-rights-labour-relati... So I don't this the OP would be at risk of fraud at all in Germany. They would be at risk of being fired as they are working two jobs.

erinnh 4y ago

I was talking about full time jobs, which these "overemployed" stories generally talk about. Its technically legal to work two jobs, but in reality it simply isnt because of employee protections. Such as its illegal to work more than 40 hours average in my country. Company cant force you to work more than 40 hours per average, and neither can you choose to. Its ok to work 50 hours in one week, but you need to work less than 40 hours another then. Its also illegal to work more than 10 hours in one day. Or have less than 11 hours between job days. (Ie. you cant stop working at 11pm and start working again at 9am the next day. Theres many other issues, such as you arent allowed to work while on holiday. So you cant work a different job while on holiday from your other job. Or the fact that basically 100% of employment contracts say the amount of hours you have to work. And telling your employer you did without doing so is fraud.

Dave3of5 4y ago
> Such as its illegal to work more than 40 hours average You are also confused about this law. In the EU you can't force employees to work more than these hours but it's up to the employee they can agree to work more hours if they want to. It's NOT illegal to work more than those hours. > Its also illegal to work more than 10 hours in one day Wrong again the law is that a company can't force you to work these hours. That's different from being illegal for you to work more than those hours. > Or the fact that basically 100% of employment contracts say the amount of hours you have to work. And telling your employer you did without doing so is fraud It's a breach of contract NOT fraud. You really need to actually read the rules on these protections as I think you're misinformed.
- erinnh 4y ago
  That might be true in the EU, I have no idea. But not in Germany. An employee cannot choose to work longer than that. I still was slightly wrong. The average work hours cannot exceed 48 hours a week. But an employee is not allowed to work more than that. And it very definitely is fraud. It’s called Arbeitszeitbetrug, the „Betrug“ in that word is fraud. Source: (in German) https://www.nebenjob.de/ratgeber/3164-maximale-arbeitszeit-wie-viele-stunden-im-nebenjob-sind-zusatzlich-erlaubt https://www.nebenjob.de/ratgeber/3164-maximale-arbeitszeit-w... Ill translate the relevant part for you (you can use DeepL or something if you want to crosscheck): "Für Arbeitnehmer mit Hauptjob und Nebenjob gelten diese Arbeitszeiten - Man darf in der Regel maximal 48 Stunden die Woche arbeiten. - Wenn man (zeitweilig) die Stunden pro Tag erhöht, ist eine wöchentliche Arbeitszeit von bis zu 60 Stunden möglich, wenn innerhalb eines halben Jahres die Wochenarbeitszeit auf durchschnittlich 48 Stunden ausgeglichen wird." Translation: The following working hours are relevant for employees with main and sidejob: - You are only allowed to work maximum 48 hours per week on average - If one decides (temporarily) to increase the time worked per day, a maximum 60 hours per week is possible, as long as the average worked hours stay at 48 hours per week in a 6 month timeframe. And source for Arbeitszeitbetrug being fraud: https://beratung.de/recht/ratgeber/arbeitszeitbetrug-definition-nachweis-und-konsequenzen_fncgsd https://beratung.de/recht/ratgeber/arbeitszeitbetrug-definit...
  - Dave3of5 4y ago
    I can't interpret German legal documents correctly so I'll take your word. Note that this isn't an employee protection as it places a severe limit on your rights. It is strange this hasn't been challenged based upon the fact it contravenes Article 23(1) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights specifically "free choice of employment". That's not to say you are wrong but if working too much means you get a fine I don't think I'll ever want to work in that country. I would go so far as to say that's way worse than the limited laws in the US. I would note here that the overemployeed here is generally not work 100+ hours but working two full time jobs in 40-50 hours so they well could manage to be within that work time law. Here is a more appropriate discussion about overemployment in Germany without fraud being mentioned at all as it wouldn't be fraud if you stick to the 48 hours: https://www.mondaq.com/germany/employee-rights-labour-relations/1142176/leading-a-double-work-life-remote-work-and-dual-employment-in-germany https://www.mondaq.com/germany/employee-rights-labour-relati... So I don't this the OP would be at risk of fraud at all in Germany. They would be at risk of being fired as they are working two jobs.