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> And the reason it is being called fraud is because he is probably misrepresenting his circumstances The reason it's being called fraud is because it is fraud

> And the reason it is being called fraud is because he is probably misrepresenting his circumstances The reason it's being called fraud is because it is fraud. How could it not be? Every full-time contract I've ever had had a clause stipulating that it would be my only employment. If I'd had another job and my boss found out, that would be grounds for instant dismissal. My wife works in the legal department of a FAANG company and she says this has actually become a big problem for them since the pandemic and the shift to remote work. They've fired a bunch of people after discovering they were "overemployed", and they're increasingly vigilant about it and on the lookout for employees who might be doing it. So if you want to try it yourself, don't assume you won't get caught.

antman 4y ago
In many countries terms of what you are doing outside of contract as long as not as it does no harm are null n void. YMMV
Retric 4y ago
Breech of contract isn’t the same thing as fraud. A full time employment contract doesn’t preclude other things which take up significant time such as volunteering, or parenthood. Companies want exclusivity to increase their bargaining position, but they simply fire most of these people rather than sue for damages because it’s difficult to prove any harm.
- mytherin 4y ago
  If you are charging two companies for 40 hours per week of work, while only working 20 hours per week for each of them, then that is fraud by any reasonable definition of the word.
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    So I guess all those companies paying for 40 hours and getting 50 or 60 should be charged charged with fraud?
    - mytherin 4y ago
      If your employer expects you to work 50 or 60 hours while only paying you for 40 hours then that is indeed also illegal.
      - w4ffl35 4y ago
        I take it you've never had a salary pay job in America. One of my recent jobs had me working 100 hours per week for $130k (base salary). Every job I've ever had expected overtime without extra pay. One job had me working through every holiday without bonus. I've had some shitty jobs, but it wasn't illegal for them to demand this out of me.
        Terretta 4y ago
        For anyone working crazy hours and getting paid salary while having zero sense of control, it's worth checking if you're misclassified as exempt: https://www.thebalancemoney.com/exempt-and-a-non-exempt-employee-2061988 https://www.thebalancemoney.com/exempt-and-a-non-exempt-empl... If you work with computers, or are above 100k and any part of the job is executive, administrative, or professional, you're probably not, though.
        w4ffl35 4y ago
        have looked into this for myself and i'm definitely exempt from being paid overtime. i now take these unreasonable demands as a sign that the employer wants me to quit.
      - chrisbaker98 4y ago
        My contract says that I'm expected to work Monday to Friday 9am to 6pm with a one hour lunch break (so 40 hours) but it also has some vague, ambiguous language about "occasionally" working "additional hours" as business demands it. So they can make me work 50-60 hours in one week and it wouldn't breach my contract.
  - fbdab103 4y ago
    Are we suddenly counting people who show up and only give a partial effort? I am not sure you are prepared for how deep this rabbit hole goes.
  - Retric 4y ago
    That assumes you are working 20 hours at each, plenty of people work 80+ hour weeks.
- 314 4y ago
  fraud: wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. If you sign a full-time contract and claim that you are only working a single job, while holding down multiple jobs then you are lying for financial gain.
  - reillyse 4y ago
    But it’s such a vague statement that it could actually apply to lots of things. Like say advertisements. Say dating. Say pretty much everything that happens all the time. The definition of fraud you use is overly general.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      Perhaps you could provide another reasonable definition of fraud to support an argument that this behavior is not fraudulent?
    - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
      I'm pretty sure a lot of what is described would fall under fraud in most jurisdictions if these things are in either of the contracts, as they tend to be in mine. 1. Length of hours worked per week and work start and end - if you are supposed to be working in times between 8 and 17 with a total of 37.5 hours worked per week if you do a couple 1 hour meetings between 9 and 16 for employer B every day then you have defrauded employer A because it would be impossible for you to make that 37.5 hours between 8 and 17 they are paying you for. You have deceived the company that you are working for them and receiving compensation while working for another company. It's pretty open and shut in legal terms and no but what about lying to a date pontificating is going to change that. 2. Do the contracts with companies have clauses about how they own everything you product technology wise while working for them? on edit: changed time usage from American to Military Time / European in one instance so all usages were aligned.
  - MetaKiller4000 4y ago
    I don’t care what the contract says. If all of my employers are satisfied with my work, I don’t feel any remorse. Employment contracts are part of the game. Overemployment is part of the metagame :-)
- chrisbaker98 4y ago
  Well now we're just arguing semantics, but here's Dictionary.com's definition of fraud: "deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage." I don't know if getting a second job wouldn't be fraud in a strict legalistic sense, but it definitely meets the above definition. Anyway, if you wanna do it, go ahead. I'm not going to risk it myself, but I've worked at plenty of companies which were badly-enough run that I can imagine getting away with this kind of behaviour. I've also worked for employers who treated me like garbage, so I can understand why some people might have no objection to treating their employer like garbage.
  - roxgib 4y ago
    When someone is saying 'fraud', I think most people are talking specifically about a criminal offence of some kind.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
2 out of 6 of the engineers we hired this year were overemployed and never mentioned it till we worked it out. One was just straight up kinda useless, the other was manipulative and a smooth talker and was good at claiming having a hand in others work when he did very little, think he was working at least 3 jobs. Not sure if it’s just our hiring is kinda useless but I’d be very reluctant to agree to anyone full WFH after being burned, risk isn’t worth burning time or money for.
- chrisbaker98 4y ago
  How did you find it out? Were you able to unambiguously prove that they were doing it?
MerelyMortal 4y ago
I imagine it also opens up legal issues if a person was employed by both Company A and Company B, and Company A decides to sue Company B. Also, how can a company be sure that ideas an employee gave, was developed by the employee and not just copied from another company?
User23 4y ago
> Every full-time contract I've ever had had a clause stipulating that it would be my only employment I'm not a lawyer, but I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of clause isn't legal in California and maybe even other states.
randomdata 4y ago
> Every full-time contract I've ever had had a clause stipulating that it would be my only employment. I, the opposite. I'm explicit that I plan to work other jobs and work it into the contract. Nobody really cares; or at least aren't in a position to display care. If you're paying $200k-type salaries, you've already shown your cards that you're desperate! The only time I experienced a little back and forth was one organization that had obligations to their customers for the workers not be engaged in work at other companies for data security reasons, with a formal rule that workers not work anywhere else to cover their bases, but as I like to do my other work in unrelated industries it was crafted as an exception without much trouble.

antman 4y ago

In many countries terms of what you are doing outside of contract as long as not as it does no harm are null n void. YMMV

Retric 4y ago

Breech of contract isn’t the same thing as fraud. A full time employment contract doesn’t preclude other things which take up significant time such as volunteering, or parenthood. Companies want exclusivity to increase their bargaining position, but they simply fire most of these people rather than sue for damages because it’s difficult to prove any harm.

mytherin 4y ago
If you are charging two companies for 40 hours per week of work, while only working 20 hours per week for each of them, then that is fraud by any reasonable definition of the word.
- ok_dad 4y ago
  So I guess all those companies paying for 40 hours and getting 50 or 60 should be charged charged with fraud?
  - mytherin 4y ago
    If your employer expects you to work 50 or 60 hours while only paying you for 40 hours then that is indeed also illegal.
    - w4ffl35 4y ago
      I take it you've never had a salary pay job in America. One of my recent jobs had me working 100 hours per week for $130k (base salary). Every job I've ever had expected overtime without extra pay. One job had me working through every holiday without bonus. I've had some shitty jobs, but it wasn't illegal for them to demand this out of me.
      - Terretta 4y ago
        For anyone working crazy hours and getting paid salary while having zero sense of control, it's worth checking if you're misclassified as exempt: https://www.thebalancemoney.com/exempt-and-a-non-exempt-employee-2061988 https://www.thebalancemoney.com/exempt-and-a-non-exempt-empl... If you work with computers, or are above 100k and any part of the job is executive, administrative, or professional, you're probably not, though.
        w4ffl35 4y ago
        have looked into this for myself and i'm definitely exempt from being paid overtime. i now take these unreasonable demands as a sign that the employer wants me to quit.
    - chrisbaker98 4y ago
      My contract says that I'm expected to work Monday to Friday 9am to 6pm with a one hour lunch break (so 40 hours) but it also has some vague, ambiguous language about "occasionally" working "additional hours" as business demands it. So they can make me work 50-60 hours in one week and it wouldn't breach my contract.
- fbdab103 4y ago
  Are we suddenly counting people who show up and only give a partial effort? I am not sure you are prepared for how deep this rabbit hole goes.
- Retric 4y ago
  That assumes you are working 20 hours at each, plenty of people work 80+ hour weeks.
314 4y ago
fraud: wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. If you sign a full-time contract and claim that you are only working a single job, while holding down multiple jobs then you are lying for financial gain.
- reillyse 4y ago
  But it’s such a vague statement that it could actually apply to lots of things. Like say advertisements. Say dating. Say pretty much everything that happens all the time. The definition of fraud you use is overly general.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Perhaps you could provide another reasonable definition of fraud to support an argument that this behavior is not fraudulent?
  - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure a lot of what is described would fall under fraud in most jurisdictions if these things are in either of the contracts, as they tend to be in mine. 1. Length of hours worked per week and work start and end - if you are supposed to be working in times between 8 and 17 with a total of 37.5 hours worked per week if you do a couple 1 hour meetings between 9 and 16 for employer B every day then you have defrauded employer A because it would be impossible for you to make that 37.5 hours between 8 and 17 they are paying you for. You have deceived the company that you are working for them and receiving compensation while working for another company. It's pretty open and shut in legal terms and no but what about lying to a date pontificating is going to change that. 2. Do the contracts with companies have clauses about how they own everything you product technology wise while working for them? on edit: changed time usage from American to Military Time / European in one instance so all usages were aligned.
- MetaKiller4000 4y ago
  I don’t care what the contract says. If all of my employers are satisfied with my work, I don’t feel any remorse. Employment contracts are part of the game. Overemployment is part of the metagame :-)
chrisbaker98 4y ago
Well now we're just arguing semantics, but here's Dictionary.com's definition of fraud: "deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage." I don't know if getting a second job wouldn't be fraud in a strict legalistic sense, but it definitely meets the above definition. Anyway, if you wanna do it, go ahead. I'm not going to risk it myself, but I've worked at plenty of companies which were badly-enough run that I can imagine getting away with this kind of behaviour. I've also worked for employers who treated me like garbage, so I can understand why some people might have no objection to treating their employer like garbage.
- roxgib 4y ago
  When someone is saying 'fraud', I think most people are talking specifically about a criminal offence of some kind.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

2 out of 6 of the engineers we hired this year were overemployed and never mentioned it till we worked it out. One was just straight up kinda useless, the other was manipulative and a smooth talker and was good at claiming having a hand in others work when he did very little, think he was working at least 3 jobs. Not sure if it’s just our hiring is kinda useless but I’d be very reluctant to agree to anyone full WFH after being burned, risk isn’t worth burning time or money for.

chrisbaker98 4y ago
How did you find it out? Were you able to unambiguously prove that they were doing it?

MerelyMortal 4y ago

I imagine it also opens up legal issues if a person was employed by both Company A and Company B, and Company A decides to sue Company B. Also, how can a company be sure that ideas an employee gave, was developed by the employee and not just copied from another company?

User23 4y ago

> Every full-time contract I've ever had had a clause stipulating that it would be my only employment I'm not a lawyer, but I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of clause isn't legal in California and maybe even other states.

randomdata 4y ago

> Every full-time contract I've ever had had a clause stipulating that it would be my only employment. I, the opposite. I'm explicit that I plan to work other jobs and work it into the contract. Nobody really cares; or at least aren't in a position to display care. If you're paying $200k-type salaries, you've already shown your cards that you're desperate! The only time I experienced a little back and forth was one organization that had obligations to their customers for the workers not be engaged in work at other companies for data security reasons, with a formal rule that workers not work anywhere else to cover their bases, but as I like to do my other work in unrelated industries it was crafted as an exception without much trouble.