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It's not a cop-out, it's exactly how other countries have eliminated this problem. The US is the largest incarcerator in the world, yet it still has these prob

It's not a cop-out, it's exactly how other countries have eliminated this problem. The US is the largest incarcerator in the world, yet it still has these problems. Your suggestion is that we can imprison our way out of this, but prison makes people poorer, in some cases permanently, which ultimately makes the problem worse.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
And yet not imprisoning people isn't a solution either. Weird. Portugal and the NL other countries who are supposedly soft on druggies are actually far stricter with them than Canada or the USA - but by imprisoning the drug user on first use they provide a better outcome than going easy on them until they manage to commit serious crime and have to do hard time.
- ryan_lane 4y ago
  You seem to think that prison time somehow rehabilitates people, but data simply doesn't back you up on that. People are categorically worse off and more likely to commit more serious crimes after being imprisoned. If we want to lower crime, we need to address the source of the crime, and that's primarily poverty. There's plenty of research that shows strong correlation. Law & order approaches have historically been quite ineffective, and are very likely to help increase, rather than decrease crime. This isn't to say there should be no crime enforcement, but concentrating on violent crime, and less on petty crime would be a step in the right direction. Hell, one of the most effective places we could set our sights is wage theft.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    > You seem to think that prison time somehow rehabilitates people, but data simply doesn't back you up on that. That's a cop out even if it was true. "We can't put them in jail [so you have to suffer the break-ins and violence]". If you can't help then step back and let people who either can or are at least still willing to try. Portugal imprisons, and has great results, but it imprisons you in a rehab program and doesn't give criminal records from the drug-use portion of your charges. (If you stole to buy drugs then you get a record for the theft.) > People are categorically worse off and more likely to commit more serious crimes after being imprisoned. People are categorically worse off after being preyed on by a criminal. Please consider the actual victims here. If your prisons are that bad then you should pay to ship them off the countries that run humane prisons, but you still need to do something. > If we want to lower crime, we need to address the source of the crime, and that's primarily poverty. Once citizens are safe on the streets and can work on community wealth-building programs then sure. Many people are poor because of crime and need help too. > one of the most effective places we could set our sights is wage theft Now you're in the spirit of the thing. Recognize more crime and punish more criminals to make things better for everyone.
    - ryan_lane 4y ago
      > "We can't put them in jail [so you have to suffer the break-ins and violence]" Break-ins and violence aren't petty theft. Break-ins are a form a violence, as well. Prison is a reasonable thing to use to isolate violent people. It would be ideal if rehabilitation was what was happening during that isolation, of course. > it imprisons you in a rehab program and doesn't give criminal records from the drug-use portion of your charges This doesn't happen in the US. In the US, if you're imprisoned, your life will be worse afterwards, not better. You will be poorer, you won't be able to get most jobs, and you won't be able to rent most apartments. You'll also be released on parole, and will have a constantly disrupted schedule that further limits you. I'd love to also see prison reform in the US, but it's a separate topic. Even with prison reform, it's better if people don't go to prison to begin with. In the best case, if you go to prison, you're going to lose your job, and you're very likely going to lose your home. > Please consider the actual victims here. For petty theft, the victim is the business, which in the vast majority of cases is a large corporation, who has leakage built into their numbers. Stop conflating petty theft with violent crime. > Once citizens are safe on the streets They are. Cities in the US are the safest they've ever been. These reports about massive crime waves are simply lies supported by idiotic statistics. Yes, crime is some categories is up 100-200%, but that's because the actual crime numbers are so low now that minor changes in the numbers looks like huge percentage shifts. If the stock market dropped 90%, then went up 200%, would you be celebrating the 200%? > Recognize more crime and punish more criminals to make things better for everyone The point isn't to punish more crime, it's to punish the right crimes to move the needle. Poor people having their wages stolen makes them poorer. Poverty is strongly associated with crime (especially violent crime). Same reason to encourage unions, increase minimum wage, have better social programs, provide free childcare, provide free education, provide public health insurance. When people have their needs covered, they're less likely to commit crimes for money.
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        > Stop conflating petty theft with violent crime. Stop condoning violent crime just because it starts as something petty. It's not just that these people are stealing in "shoplifting gangs" it's that they easily resort to violence when blocked. > It would be ideal if rehabilitation was what was happening during that isolation, of course. [...] I'd love to also see prison reform in the US, but it's a separate topic. If you say so. This seems like a perfect time to fix prisons so that you could better use them. > For petty theft, the victim is the business, which in the vast majority of cases is a large corporation, who has leakage built into their numbers. That's a commie answer. Corporations are made of people, and owned by people. If I robbed your house enough you'd eventually budget for it, at which point I could defend myself by saying "See, it's built into his monthly expenses!" > If the stock market dropped 90%, then went up 200%, would you be celebrating the 200%? Yes. > Cities in the US are the safest they've ever been Less safe than last year, for a few years now. Yes, it's smaller than all past gains but why are we slipping backward at all? > The point isn't to punish more crime, it's to punish the right crimes to move the needle. I'm not about the absolute numbers but the percentages. I wish there was less crime to punish, but of the more damaging types the problem is definitely that we aren't punishing enough. And yes, that totally includes economic crimes that make the everyday people poorer. > Same reason to encourage unions, increase minimum wage, have better social programs, provide free childcare, provide free education, provide public health insurance. When people have their needs covered, they're less likely to commit crimes for money. What a depressingly bad set of social policies but what a great demonstration of why we're in trouble. Unions were a good idea when workers were dying, a little light crying isn't an issue. Minimum wage increases produce inflation not real wealth. Social programs are what's destroying many cities - specifically Vancouver, Seattle, SF. Free childcare is backwards compared to helping mothers work less in the first place and hurts the quality providers in the market. Insurance that everyone has isn't insurance, it's a poorly run buying program - mandate open drug pricing and help small providers buy at scale to achieve savings. > When people have their needs covered, they're less likely to commit crimes for money. Help make the economy better so they can afford to. Safety for people and property is essential.

LawTalkingGuy 4y ago

And yet not imprisoning people isn't a solution either. Weird. Portugal and the NL other countries who are supposedly soft on druggies are actually far stricter with them than Canada or the USA - but by imprisoning the drug user on first use they provide a better outcome than going easy on them until they manage to commit serious crime and have to do hard time.

ryan_lane 4y ago
You seem to think that prison time somehow rehabilitates people, but data simply doesn't back you up on that. People are categorically worse off and more likely to commit more serious crimes after being imprisoned. If we want to lower crime, we need to address the source of the crime, and that's primarily poverty. There's plenty of research that shows strong correlation. Law & order approaches have historically been quite ineffective, and are very likely to help increase, rather than decrease crime. This isn't to say there should be no crime enforcement, but concentrating on violent crime, and less on petty crime would be a step in the right direction. Hell, one of the most effective places we could set our sights is wage theft.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  > You seem to think that prison time somehow rehabilitates people, but data simply doesn't back you up on that. That's a cop out even if it was true. "We can't put them in jail [so you have to suffer the break-ins and violence]". If you can't help then step back and let people who either can or are at least still willing to try. Portugal imprisons, and has great results, but it imprisons you in a rehab program and doesn't give criminal records from the drug-use portion of your charges. (If you stole to buy drugs then you get a record for the theft.) > People are categorically worse off and more likely to commit more serious crimes after being imprisoned. People are categorically worse off after being preyed on by a criminal. Please consider the actual victims here. If your prisons are that bad then you should pay to ship them off the countries that run humane prisons, but you still need to do something. > If we want to lower crime, we need to address the source of the crime, and that's primarily poverty. Once citizens are safe on the streets and can work on community wealth-building programs then sure. Many people are poor because of crime and need help too. > one of the most effective places we could set our sights is wage theft Now you're in the spirit of the thing. Recognize more crime and punish more criminals to make things better for everyone.
  - ryan_lane 4y ago
    > "We can't put them in jail [so you have to suffer the break-ins and violence]" Break-ins and violence aren't petty theft. Break-ins are a form a violence, as well. Prison is a reasonable thing to use to isolate violent people. It would be ideal if rehabilitation was what was happening during that isolation, of course. > it imprisons you in a rehab program and doesn't give criminal records from the drug-use portion of your charges This doesn't happen in the US. In the US, if you're imprisoned, your life will be worse afterwards, not better. You will be poorer, you won't be able to get most jobs, and you won't be able to rent most apartments. You'll also be released on parole, and will have a constantly disrupted schedule that further limits you. I'd love to also see prison reform in the US, but it's a separate topic. Even with prison reform, it's better if people don't go to prison to begin with. In the best case, if you go to prison, you're going to lose your job, and you're very likely going to lose your home. > Please consider the actual victims here. For petty theft, the victim is the business, which in the vast majority of cases is a large corporation, who has leakage built into their numbers. Stop conflating petty theft with violent crime. > Once citizens are safe on the streets They are. Cities in the US are the safest they've ever been. These reports about massive crime waves are simply lies supported by idiotic statistics. Yes, crime is some categories is up 100-200%, but that's because the actual crime numbers are so low now that minor changes in the numbers looks like huge percentage shifts. If the stock market dropped 90%, then went up 200%, would you be celebrating the 200%? > Recognize more crime and punish more criminals to make things better for everyone The point isn't to punish more crime, it's to punish the right crimes to move the needle. Poor people having their wages stolen makes them poorer. Poverty is strongly associated with crime (especially violent crime). Same reason to encourage unions, increase minimum wage, have better social programs, provide free childcare, provide free education, provide public health insurance. When people have their needs covered, they're less likely to commit crimes for money.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      > Stop conflating petty theft with violent crime. Stop condoning violent crime just because it starts as something petty. It's not just that these people are stealing in "shoplifting gangs" it's that they easily resort to violence when blocked. > It would be ideal if rehabilitation was what was happening during that isolation, of course. [...] I'd love to also see prison reform in the US, but it's a separate topic. If you say so. This seems like a perfect time to fix prisons so that you could better use them. > For petty theft, the victim is the business, which in the vast majority of cases is a large corporation, who has leakage built into their numbers. That's a commie answer. Corporations are made of people, and owned by people. If I robbed your house enough you'd eventually budget for it, at which point I could defend myself by saying "See, it's built into his monthly expenses!" > If the stock market dropped 90%, then went up 200%, would you be celebrating the 200%? Yes. > Cities in the US are the safest they've ever been Less safe than last year, for a few years now. Yes, it's smaller than all past gains but why are we slipping backward at all? > The point isn't to punish more crime, it's to punish the right crimes to move the needle. I'm not about the absolute numbers but the percentages. I wish there was less crime to punish, but of the more damaging types the problem is definitely that we aren't punishing enough. And yes, that totally includes economic crimes that make the everyday people poorer. > Same reason to encourage unions, increase minimum wage, have better social programs, provide free childcare, provide free education, provide public health insurance. When people have their needs covered, they're less likely to commit crimes for money. What a depressingly bad set of social policies but what a great demonstration of why we're in trouble. Unions were a good idea when workers were dying, a little light crying isn't an issue. Minimum wage increases produce inflation not real wealth. Social programs are what's destroying many cities - specifically Vancouver, Seattle, SF. Free childcare is backwards compared to helping mothers work less in the first place and hurts the quality providers in the market. Insurance that everyone has isn't insurance, it's a poorly run buying program - mandate open drug pricing and help small providers buy at scale to achieve savings. > When people have their needs covered, they're less likely to commit crimes for money. Help make the economy better so they can afford to. Safety for people and property is essential.