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This is clearly not true. > Manhattan D.A. Acts on Vow to Seek Incarceration Only for Worst Crimes > The district attorney, Alvin Bragg, told prosecutors in h

• public_defender 4y ago
  It clearly is true. I can actually watch it happen. You can too, if you go to arraignments in NYC. The line ADAs have no discretion to dismiss petit larceny (shoplifting) at arraignment. They need supervisor approval. There are other cases like driving under suspension (VTL 511 -- mentioned in GP) where they do have this discretion. There is a reason for the difference, which is that petit larceny is a priority. Also, the DAs supported the "harm over harm" amendment to bail reform (CPL 510.10(4)t) for the explicit purpose of seeking bail in repeat shoplifting cases. And can you guess how they're using it? You are conflating DA public statements with actual operational policy. It is nothing new that DAs claim to prioritize things that are not on their roadmaps.
  • bhk 4y ago
    So on the one side I see news reports of dozens of cases of serial shoplifting offenders out on the streets, and the NYC DA informing his staff and letting the public know that if you steal less than $500 you will not go to jail. But you're claiming that the DA actually intended to send them to jail. So he was baiting them to commit the crime? I don't buy it. And you're claiming that his prosecutors have no discretion in prosecuting these cases? I don't buy it, but if you have some references to support that claim, other than word of mouth, I'm all ears. I can't find precisely what the amendment was and when it took effect, but the subject of the article was a surge in retail theft over several years, so if you're talking about some changes in the past year, then maybe we will be able to see some effects in the next year.
    • public_defender 4y ago
      I am speaking of the perspective of having seen about 200 cases of this type in the last few years (this is a moderately low sample size among practitioners) in the place in question and from having discussed the issue with colleagues who have more experience than that over longer time periods in the same place. You are free to disregard my "word of mouth" claim in favor of an elected prosecutor's press releases and true crime sensational stories in one of the country's most infamous tabloids. I just wanted to put some ink on the statement that what I described is "clearly not true."
      • macinjosh 4y ago
        You are only seeing the cases that make it to the courthouse, right? How many shoplifting events are ignored, missed, or otherwise let off before things make it that far? OK, there is no discretion on the cases they allow into court but there is a hell of a lot of discretion before things get to that point.
        • public_defender 4y ago
          This is correct in the sense that the police have the ability to "let someone off with a warning," or loss prevention/the cashier can look the other way, but my statement applies to any case where someone gets a ticket or is arrested. That's where the ratchet starts to tighten. In the case of habitual, high-volume retail theft like in the article, people seem to be eventually arrested at a pretty fast clip, though it's obviously impossible to know the rate.
      • bhk 4y ago
        I regret the "clearly not true" wording. I wasn't reading your original comment as closely as I should have. But now I'm not clear exactly what you are claiming. Of the 200 cases you've seen, how many were petit larceny cases that resulted in jail time? How much jail time? Every source I can find indicates that the government can reduce charges or dismiss, and that in any event, jail time is unlikely. "Jail is highly unlikely" (for petit larceny) https://stengellaw.com/larceny-lawyer-nyc/ https://stengellaw.com/larceny-lawyer-nyc/ "A petit larceny charge “would get a desk appearance ticket and fall under Bragg’s ‘no prosecution memo,’” said Joseph Giacalone, a John Jay College of Criminal Justice professor and ex-NYPD sergeant..." https://nypost.com/2022/01/08/alvin-bragg-underplayed-shoplifting-arrest-says-nypd-sergeants-union/ https://nypost.com/2022/01/08/alvin-bragg-underplayed-shopli...
  • crackercrews 4y ago
    Aren't most shoplifters not even caught? Police don't investigate because the city won't prosecute. And shops won't report because police won't investigate. Maybe what you say is true about arraignments. But that assumes that someone has been reported, investigated, and caught.
    • public_defender 4y ago
      > Aren't most shoplifters not even caught? Maybe? I would tend to believe that but it seems impossible to know. I think companies tend to argue something like shrinkage == theft and theft > arrests, but that's pretty suspect since there are many other ways that inventory goes missing. As to your other point, I think it's a myth that people lose faith in governmental administration and fail to report crime in this context. Maybe that happens with things like sexual violence, but not here where property owners have every economic reason to report theft without considering police availability or effectiveness. I agree that police don't investigate crime like this (in cities), but in the corporate context they don't need to. This field is dominated by private investigation and security. People are detained with dubious legality by the "loss prevention" employee until police show up, then the store hands over 4k video of the person stuffing baby formula in their pants and walking out of the store.
  • rahilb 4y ago
    It can both true that those shoplifters getting caught are punished to the full extent of the law and that it is hard to catch 50/50 people who were in a shop for 30 seconds and arrest them for shoplifting. So hard in fact that if the police are not physically there before it is happening there is likely zero chance to catch anyone in these groups. The crime is perfect.