4 ms·

Why is flipping the switch bad in this context? Isn’t that actually what the protocol needs, a major visible platform adopting it with open arms all at once?

notatoad 4y ago
i think right now the protocol and the people who run popular mastodon instances are being treated as the same thing - mastodon.social and various affiliated servers are trying to build a community based around a certain set of values and type of content, and feeding all of tumblr into that might cause some drama. it's unquestionably good for the protocol to have more people using it. but it might not be good for mastodon.
- simfree 4y ago
  Mastodon.social and other large instances certainly aren't working to build the same focused, higher quality communities that smaller instances thrive on. This is part of why many instances block the large, poorly moderated instances.
lmm 4y ago
Pivix did exactly that, becoming the majority of the fediverse overnight. The result was a huge concerted effort to block them.
- rodgerd 4y ago
  Odd that you choose not to mention that the rest of the fediverse dropped them over child pornography, which might leave some readers with the wrong impression about Pixiv's problems.
  - lmm 4y ago
    Over a novel, non-standard definition of child pornography. I suspect the fediverse would find something equally offensive to redefine tumblr as responsible for.
    - rodgerd 4y ago
      You have to be pretty far down the weeb hole to think that anime loli isn't regarded as child porn by anyone outside of that particular cave.
      - tpxl 4y ago
        There are reasons child pornography is bad and loli doesn't share any of those reasons. Equating those two is pearl clutching and an insult to victims of actual child pornography.
        zimpenfish 4y ago
        Regardless of the specific distinction between the two, it would be possibly illegal for me, as a UKian, to allow that content[1] - "The Act made it illegal to own any picture depicting under-18s participating in sexual activities, or depictions of sexual activity in the presence of someone under 18 years old." (I admit that I am not well versed enough in "anime loli" to know whether it is just "sexual activities" or more nuanced but I'm not risking a jail sentence either way, thanks. UKGOV is trigger happy on anything CSAM/fictional CSAM.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_fictional_pornography_depicting_minors#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_fictional_porn...
        rkangel 4y ago
        There are reasons child pornography is bad and loli shares some (but by no means all) of the reasons. Just because loli isn't as bad as 'normal' child pornography doesn't mean that it's not still bad. Sexualisation of minors is not a good thing, and taking a stance against it is a perfectly reasonable action. For example - Netflix's "Cuties" film should never have been made, except that it did at least draw some attention to the real life pageants that are themselves a problem.
      - GaggiX 4y ago
        I think many people would find it reasonable to draw a line between victimless drawing and abuse material, regardless of whether it contains children, gore, violence, bestiality, rape, etc.
- esjeon 4y ago
  You mean Pawoo created by Pixiv? Welp, yeah, but having Tumblr federated would not raise legal issues like that.
Kye 4y ago
Look at how much chaos came from just adding a few million people in a month. I don't see a way that goes better adding tens of millions in the same or shorter period. The best way for Tumblr to do it would be to: 1: Open source it 2: Make it federated with other Tumblrs. Probably using whatever BlueSky cooks up, or some similar effort focused on big platforms. 3: Offer a managed version the same way they do with WordPress for the majority of people who don't want to run their own 4: Provide an optional ActivityPub extension 5: Telegraph that federation is coming for the still probably too big main instance(s) to give administrators time to decide how they'll handle it: mute, block, allow, etc. This gives people who eventually migrate off in 6/7 a clear view of how instances plan to handle it. 6: Add ActivityPub support to the main instance(s). Make it opt-in. 7: Wait to see how it shakes out as people migrate to non-Tumblr instances. By now, probably 2-3 years in, there will be enough diversity in platforms and hosting options that most people will have some place to go that's appealing. We already see minimal AP instance software popping up that focuses on providing people with a Linktree/Caard-like experience where it's only a profile that's exposed to AP instances. Maybe even sites like that will add AP support! Posts from these could replace newsletters. (I know, a common claim for as long as newsletters have existed)
- sylvietg 4y ago
  Tumblr already effectively federates inside its own network. Instead of accessing <blog>.tumblr.com, log in at tumblr.com and then visit tumblr.com/<blog>. Each user must have one blog. A user can create more blogs and a blog may have more than one contributor. Only primary blogs can comment, like, etc. What I would personally do is copy Mastodon's approach. This is super easy and pain free and doesn't require messing with Hellsite's architecture and potentially ticking off thousands of users while simultaneously playing better with Mastodon, specifically. How do I accomplish this? By creating a proxy for each Federated entity the first time it is needed. Tumblr's local API continues to just operate against local entities, tagging the proxy when needed. A separate process batches outbound notifications, grouping by target server. Inbound, I just locate or create the proxy for the given federated entity - then use the existing deliver infrastructure to deliver the notification. This also gives me a good way to cache content - and allows local trust and safety to do their thing if they need to. It limits all code changes related to this to the edge of my network, limiting the risk.

notatoad 4y ago

i think right now the protocol and the people who run popular mastodon instances are being treated as the same thing - mastodon.social and various affiliated servers are trying to build a community based around a certain set of values and type of content, and feeding all of tumblr into that might cause some drama. it's unquestionably good for the protocol to have more people using it. but it might not be good for mastodon.

simfree 4y ago
Mastodon.social and other large instances certainly aren't working to build the same focused, higher quality communities that smaller instances thrive on. This is part of why many instances block the large, poorly moderated instances.

lmm 4y ago

Pivix did exactly that, becoming the majority of the fediverse overnight. The result was a huge concerted effort to block them.

rodgerd 4y ago
Odd that you choose not to mention that the rest of the fediverse dropped them over child pornography, which might leave some readers with the wrong impression about Pixiv's problems.
- lmm 4y ago
  Over a novel, non-standard definition of child pornography. I suspect the fediverse would find something equally offensive to redefine tumblr as responsible for.
  - rodgerd 4y ago
    You have to be pretty far down the weeb hole to think that anime loli isn't regarded as child porn by anyone outside of that particular cave.
    - tpxl 4y ago
      There are reasons child pornography is bad and loli doesn't share any of those reasons. Equating those two is pearl clutching and an insult to victims of actual child pornography.
      - zimpenfish 4y ago
        Regardless of the specific distinction between the two, it would be possibly illegal for me, as a UKian, to allow that content[1] - "The Act made it illegal to own any picture depicting under-18s participating in sexual activities, or depictions of sexual activity in the presence of someone under 18 years old." (I admit that I am not well versed enough in "anime loli" to know whether it is just "sexual activities" or more nuanced but I'm not risking a jail sentence either way, thanks. UKGOV is trigger happy on anything CSAM/fictional CSAM.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_fictional_pornography_depicting_minors#United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_fictional_porn...
      - rkangel 4y ago
        There are reasons child pornography is bad and loli shares some (but by no means all) of the reasons. Just because loli isn't as bad as 'normal' child pornography doesn't mean that it's not still bad. Sexualisation of minors is not a good thing, and taking a stance against it is a perfectly reasonable action. For example - Netflix's "Cuties" film should never have been made, except that it did at least draw some attention to the real life pageants that are themselves a problem.
    - GaggiX 4y ago
      I think many people would find it reasonable to draw a line between victimless drawing and abuse material, regardless of whether it contains children, gore, violence, bestiality, rape, etc.
esjeon 4y ago
You mean Pawoo created by Pixiv? Welp, yeah, but having Tumblr federated would not raise legal issues like that.

Kye 4y ago

Look at how much chaos came from just adding a few million people in a month. I don't see a way that goes better adding tens of millions in the same or shorter period. The best way for Tumblr to do it would be to: 1: Open source it 2: Make it federated with other Tumblrs. Probably using whatever BlueSky cooks up, or some similar effort focused on big platforms. 3: Offer a managed version the same way they do with WordPress for the majority of people who don't want to run their own 4: Provide an optional ActivityPub extension 5: Telegraph that federation is coming for the still probably too big main instance(s) to give administrators time to decide how they'll handle it: mute, block, allow, etc. This gives people who eventually migrate off in 6/7 a clear view of how instances plan to handle it. 6: Add ActivityPub support to the main instance(s). Make it opt-in. 7: Wait to see how it shakes out as people migrate to non-Tumblr instances. By now, probably 2-3 years in, there will be enough diversity in platforms and hosting options that most people will have some place to go that's appealing. We already see minimal AP instance software popping up that focuses on providing people with a Linktree/Caard-like experience where it's only a profile that's exposed to AP instances. Maybe even sites like that will add AP support! Posts from these could replace newsletters. (I know, a common claim for as long as newsletters have existed)

sylvietg 4y ago
Tumblr already effectively federates inside its own network. Instead of accessing <blog>.tumblr.com, log in at tumblr.com and then visit tumblr.com/<blog>. Each user must have one blog. A user can create more blogs and a blog may have more than one contributor. Only primary blogs can comment, like, etc. What I would personally do is copy Mastodon's approach. This is super easy and pain free and doesn't require messing with Hellsite's architecture and potentially ticking off thousands of users while simultaneously playing better with Mastodon, specifically. How do I accomplish this? By creating a proxy for each Federated entity the first time it is needed. Tumblr's local API continues to just operate against local entities, tagging the proxy when needed. A separate process batches outbound notifications, grouping by target server. Inbound, I just locate or create the proxy for the given federated entity - then use the existing deliver infrastructure to deliver the notification. This also gives me a good way to cache content - and allows local trust and safety to do their thing if they need to. It limits all code changes related to this to the edge of my network, limiting the risk.