5 ms·

I'd like the organized retail theft (gangs of people robbing a store) cracked down on, but in general I'd prefer a softer touch on general petty shop lifting.

I'd like the organized retail theft (gangs of people robbing a store) cracked down on, but in general I'd prefer a softer touch on general petty shop lifting. These are different things, with different motivations, and cracking down on someone stealing because they have nothing doesn't actually prevent that from happening more (you need to address the underlying issue). The organized crime, however, should be harshly treated, because these folks are doing this to enrich themselves, and it's organized. The biggest problem here is that stopping this requires more than just police arresting people. It requires actual investigation work, and it seems that police funding tends to go to patrols and not investigation. Close rates for investigations are at all time lows. I really wish this was the focus of law & order republicans, rather than "we need to arrest people", because that only catches the easy, petty criminals.

concordDance 4y ago
> cracking down on someone stealing because they have nothing doesn't actually prevent that from happening more (you need to address the underlying issue). The petty shoplifters steal mostly because they can. They're not stealing a bag of rice because they're starving, they're stealing a new pair of jeans because there's no need to pay. There being unpleasant consequences for stealing actually would deter them.
prawn 4y ago
"I'd like the organized retail theft (gangs of people robbing a store) cracked down on, but in general I'd prefer a softer touch on general petty shop lifting. " What about door frames that launch an array of taser lines when someone hits a panic button?
listenallyall 4y ago
Although I generally agree there's little positive effect from harshly punishing very petty thieves, saying "address the underlying issue" is a major cop-out basically indicating you have no interest in fixing anything. What do you think the "underlying issue" is? Drug abuse? Lack of education? Paucity of low-skill jobs? Not enough affordable housing? Discrimination? Lack of opportunities for ex-prisoners? Inflation? Point is, there are plenty of reasons, not just one, that could lead a person to steal a few items from CVS, and they are far too numerous and widespread to believe you'll be able to do anything meaningful to "address" them.
- pj_mukh 4y ago
  This is such a weird statement. "The causes of the disease is so complicated, that anyone looking to do anything other than treat the symptoms must be disingenuous" ? :/ It is a long list of problems that most other advanced countries seem to have mitigated. Why must we throw our hands up like, "ugh, Its too hard, I need something simpler"?
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    I take issue with your statement that theft is a "disease." I do agree that for a small segment of the population, economic conditions are extremely difficult... but I don't think these are the people committing the majority of thefts. As long as you start with the assumption that theft is a disease, i.e. something that happens TO an individual, rather than a choice, we're going to have greatly-differing opinions on how to remediate.
- ryan_lane 4y ago
  It's not a cop-out, it's exactly how other countries have eliminated this problem. The US is the largest incarcerator in the world, yet it still has these problems. Your suggestion is that we can imprison our way out of this, but prison makes people poorer, in some cases permanently, which ultimately makes the problem worse.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    And yet not imprisoning people isn't a solution either. Weird. Portugal and the NL other countries who are supposedly soft on druggies are actually far stricter with them than Canada or the USA - but by imprisoning the drug user on first use they provide a better outcome than going easy on them until they manage to commit serious crime and have to do hard time.
    - ryan_lane 4y ago
      You seem to think that prison time somehow rehabilitates people, but data simply doesn't back you up on that. People are categorically worse off and more likely to commit more serious crimes after being imprisoned. If we want to lower crime, we need to address the source of the crime, and that's primarily poverty. There's plenty of research that shows strong correlation. Law & order approaches have historically been quite ineffective, and are very likely to help increase, rather than decrease crime. This isn't to say there should be no crime enforcement, but concentrating on violent crime, and less on petty crime would be a step in the right direction. Hell, one of the most effective places we could set our sights is wage theft.

concordDance 4y ago

> cracking down on someone stealing because they have nothing doesn't actually prevent that from happening more (you need to address the underlying issue). The petty shoplifters steal mostly because they can. They're not stealing a bag of rice because they're starving, they're stealing a new pair of jeans because there's no need to pay. There being unpleasant consequences for stealing actually would deter them.

prawn 4y ago

"I'd like the organized retail theft (gangs of people robbing a store) cracked down on, but in general I'd prefer a softer touch on general petty shop lifting. " What about door frames that launch an array of taser lines when someone hits a panic button?

listenallyall 4y ago

Although I generally agree there's little positive effect from harshly punishing very petty thieves, saying "address the underlying issue" is a major cop-out basically indicating you have no interest in fixing anything. What do you think the "underlying issue" is? Drug abuse? Lack of education? Paucity of low-skill jobs? Not enough affordable housing? Discrimination? Lack of opportunities for ex-prisoners? Inflation? Point is, there are plenty of reasons, not just one, that could lead a person to steal a few items from CVS, and they are far too numerous and widespread to believe you'll be able to do anything meaningful to "address" them.

pj_mukh 4y ago
This is such a weird statement. "The causes of the disease is so complicated, that anyone looking to do anything other than treat the symptoms must be disingenuous" ? :/ It is a long list of problems that most other advanced countries seem to have mitigated. Why must we throw our hands up like, "ugh, Its too hard, I need something simpler"?
- listenallyall 4y ago
  I take issue with your statement that theft is a "disease." I do agree that for a small segment of the population, economic conditions are extremely difficult... but I don't think these are the people committing the majority of thefts. As long as you start with the assumption that theft is a disease, i.e. something that happens TO an individual, rather than a choice, we're going to have greatly-differing opinions on how to remediate.
ryan_lane 4y ago
It's not a cop-out, it's exactly how other countries have eliminated this problem. The US is the largest incarcerator in the world, yet it still has these problems. Your suggestion is that we can imprison our way out of this, but prison makes people poorer, in some cases permanently, which ultimately makes the problem worse.
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  And yet not imprisoning people isn't a solution either. Weird. Portugal and the NL other countries who are supposedly soft on druggies are actually far stricter with them than Canada or the USA - but by imprisoning the drug user on first use they provide a better outcome than going easy on them until they manage to commit serious crime and have to do hard time.
  - ryan_lane 4y ago
    You seem to think that prison time somehow rehabilitates people, but data simply doesn't back you up on that. People are categorically worse off and more likely to commit more serious crimes after being imprisoned. If we want to lower crime, we need to address the source of the crime, and that's primarily poverty. There's plenty of research that shows strong correlation. Law & order approaches have historically been quite ineffective, and are very likely to help increase, rather than decrease crime. This isn't to say there should be no crime enforcement, but concentrating on violent crime, and less on petty crime would be a step in the right direction. Hell, one of the most effective places we could set our sights is wage theft.