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This is such a big nationwide problem that Target actually mentioned it during their earnings report (this is stated in the article.) Some states/cities have ma

This is such a big nationwide problem that Target actually mentioned it during their earnings report (this is stated in the article.) Some states/cities have made it near impossible to prosecute these people, so the risk/reward is very favorable to stealing and reselling. Some stores have even closed down in certain areas because of it. When we talk about "food deserts" in some cities, it could one day be we have massive deserts of no retailers at all, and it will largely be a government policy failure. The videos of organized ransacking of stores are honestly insane. The stores are somewhat powerless because of liability, and the new laws that have raised the level in which the law even cares. I don't think the "broken window" policy is the end-all, it has some problems but allowing "small" theft rings does not generally put areas on a good trajectory. These goods are almost always getting 3rd party listed, be it Amazon, eBay, Facebook Marketplace, etc.

SpelingBeeChamp 4y ago
I don’t know of any states that have made it near impossible to prosecute shoplifters. What are you referring to?
- nxm 4y ago
  Having the penalty be a slap on the wrist and having the person is released same day, it’s essentially the same as not prosecuting them. NY state bail reforms, and in San Fran; “ In 2014, a ballot referendum passed that downgraded the theft of property less than $950 in value from a felony charge to a misdemeanor.”
  - acdha 4y ago
    That’s not the same claim at all - those people can and are being prosecuted: bail wouldn’t matter if they weren’t! Similarly, changing the threshold for a felony theft charge doesn’t prevent anyone from being prosecuted.
    - factsarelolz 4y ago
      Stores aren't calling the police and if they do the police don't show up. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-12-09/skelton-organized-theft-proposition-47 https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-12-09/skelton-...
      - magicalist 4y ago
        Maybe don't take someone running for Attorney General who wants you to know crime is out of control unless you elect them at their word alone.
      - acdha 4y ago
        That’s the claim made by someone running for office on a tough on crime platform, so I’d want a more objective source and especially comparisons to other cities. For example, one other explanation is that police have gone on a soft-strike trying to reduce popular support for anti-police brutality laws. If that were the case, the focus should instead be on disciplinary measures for the officers who aren’t answering calls. The big thing we’d really want would be comparisons with other cities. We hear a lot about NYC and LA both because they’re large but also because they are synonymous with liberal in right-wing media, where billions of dollars annually are spent promoting that narrative. One of the first questions should be comparing rates to less popularly-mentioned cities, especially in states where sentencing thresholds haven’t changed.
  - magicalist 4y ago
    > having the person is released same day, it’s essentially the same as not prosecuting them No, it's called not imprisoning someone who isn't an imminent threat for weeks or months without a trial while they're waiting for one. Reform the court system to get to trial faster if you want a change, in the meantime cash bail is an affront to everyone's rights.
fosk 4y ago
This is mostly a function of policies that explicitly allow and tolerate this sort of behavior as a sort of “pay back” and “release valve” for the poor, addicts or generally speaking under represented social classes. As the wage gap and opportunity gap widens in the US, allowing shoplifting is actually an intentional release valve that is being tolerated and even outright legally permitted (California Prop 47), because - without it - we would see more home break-ins, kidnappings of wealthy people and more severe offenses. Instead, shoplifting is relatively harmless and prevents this type of escalation of crime. “Panem et circenses” said the Romans, shoplifting is a form of “panem”. I think many don’t understand the incredible pressure pot that is the US at the moment with vast negative social pressures and inequality. If it explodes, all bets are off: the US could look a lot like South Africa and Brazil than what it is now. This plus some political survivorship too: votes are all equal, and when most people are disadvantaged or about to become disadvantaged, politicians cater more and more to them (populism) in order to survive and dominate in the political arena.
- Gareth321 4y ago
  > As the wage gap and opportunity gap widens in the US, allowing shoplifting is actually an intentional release valve that is being tolerated and even outright legally permitted (California Prop 47), because - without it - we would see more home break-ins, kidnappings of wealthy people and more severe offenses. Instead, shoplifting is relatively harmless and prevents this type of escalation of crime. What a wild theory. I've seen no evidence of this mechanism existing.
  - WeylandYutani 4y ago
    I lived in slums and he's not wrong. You have no idea how some people have been left behind by society. And you expect them to care about the community?
- _xnmw 4y ago
  What you are saying is literally insane.
  - 4y ago
dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>and it will largely be a government policy failure. You mean feature. If you tell voters in no uncertain terms what will happen if they piss on the electric fence and they piss on it then it's safe to assume they wanted the results. Make no mistake, people were told certain policy would lead to businesses leaving these areas resulting in <thing> deserts. Voters voted for it anyway.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  If this only harmed the people who voted for it, then I'd have no problem with it. The problem is that it's also harming all of the people who voted for the opposite but lost.
- qwerpy 4y ago
  I’d be fine with this as long as people then don’t decry the eventual <thing> deserts as discriminatory.
  - factsarelolz 4y ago
mixmastamyk 4y ago
What is the real liability to apprehend when someone is attempting to steal a large amount of merch?
- bombcar 4y ago
  You delegate and subdivide. I get a gang together and each person steals $50 at a time, no more; if they get caught they get let go or it’s very minor. You collect the materials and farm them off to Amazon.
ransom1538 4y ago
I have no idea how a prosecutor can take down these organized rings. The entire method prosecutors use for say exotic drugs, guns, etc: "Ok we have you for 5 years here, who do you work for, make these phone calls, we can get your sentence down to parole". This allows prosecutors to work their way up. But if a prosecutor is sitting in front of a low level shop lifter - who gets out that day - i don't see any prosecutor leverage.
- prvit 4y ago
  - TillE 4y ago
    Without American cop show bluster, without pretrial detention except for serious crimes, and without lengthy prison sentences.
    - prvit 4y ago
      Mostly, except pretrial detention for minor crimes is unfortunately still not that uncommon in Europe. The lack of bail often makes this worse, a weird obsession with “fairness” forces us to continue locking up people with sufficient assets to insure against absconding. Poor people can’t afford bail? Better make everyone else suffer too.
      - codedokode 4y ago
        It is unfair indeed. A fair solution would be to improve conditions for everyone so that they can live in comfortable conditions before trial.
      - Kbelicius 4y ago
        So what you are basically saying is that poor people should suffer more for committing the same crime as someone rich.
        4y ago

SpelingBeeChamp 4y ago

I don’t know of any states that have made it near impossible to prosecute shoplifters. What are you referring to?

nxm 4y ago
Having the penalty be a slap on the wrist and having the person is released same day, it’s essentially the same as not prosecuting them. NY state bail reforms, and in San Fran; “ In 2014, a ballot referendum passed that downgraded the theft of property less than $950 in value from a felony charge to a misdemeanor.”
- acdha 4y ago
  That’s not the same claim at all - those people can and are being prosecuted: bail wouldn’t matter if they weren’t! Similarly, changing the threshold for a felony theft charge doesn’t prevent anyone from being prosecuted.
  - factsarelolz 4y ago
    Stores aren't calling the police and if they do the police don't show up. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-12-09/skelton-organized-theft-proposition-47 https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-12-09/skelton-...
    - magicalist 4y ago
      Maybe don't take someone running for Attorney General who wants you to know crime is out of control unless you elect them at their word alone.
    - acdha 4y ago
      That’s the claim made by someone running for office on a tough on crime platform, so I’d want a more objective source and especially comparisons to other cities. For example, one other explanation is that police have gone on a soft-strike trying to reduce popular support for anti-police brutality laws. If that were the case, the focus should instead be on disciplinary measures for the officers who aren’t answering calls. The big thing we’d really want would be comparisons with other cities. We hear a lot about NYC and LA both because they’re large but also because they are synonymous with liberal in right-wing media, where billions of dollars annually are spent promoting that narrative. One of the first questions should be comparing rates to less popularly-mentioned cities, especially in states where sentencing thresholds haven’t changed.
- magicalist 4y ago
  > having the person is released same day, it’s essentially the same as not prosecuting them No, it's called not imprisoning someone who isn't an imminent threat for weeks or months without a trial while they're waiting for one. Reform the court system to get to trial faster if you want a change, in the meantime cash bail is an affront to everyone's rights.

fosk 4y ago

This is mostly a function of policies that explicitly allow and tolerate this sort of behavior as a sort of “pay back” and “release valve” for the poor, addicts or generally speaking under represented social classes. As the wage gap and opportunity gap widens in the US, allowing shoplifting is actually an intentional release valve that is being tolerated and even outright legally permitted (California Prop 47), because - without it - we would see more home break-ins, kidnappings of wealthy people and more severe offenses. Instead, shoplifting is relatively harmless and prevents this type of escalation of crime. “Panem et circenses” said the Romans, shoplifting is a form of “panem”. I think many don’t understand the incredible pressure pot that is the US at the moment with vast negative social pressures and inequality. If it explodes, all bets are off: the US could look a lot like South Africa and Brazil than what it is now. This plus some political survivorship too: votes are all equal, and when most people are disadvantaged or about to become disadvantaged, politicians cater more and more to them (populism) in order to survive and dominate in the political arena.

Gareth321 4y ago
> As the wage gap and opportunity gap widens in the US, allowing shoplifting is actually an intentional release valve that is being tolerated and even outright legally permitted (California Prop 47), because - without it - we would see more home break-ins, kidnappings of wealthy people and more severe offenses. Instead, shoplifting is relatively harmless and prevents this type of escalation of crime. What a wild theory. I've seen no evidence of this mechanism existing.
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  I lived in slums and he's not wrong. You have no idea how some people have been left behind by society. And you expect them to care about the community?
_xnmw 4y ago
What you are saying is literally insane.
- 4y ago

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

>and it will largely be a government policy failure. You mean feature. If you tell voters in no uncertain terms what will happen if they piss on the electric fence and they piss on it then it's safe to assume they wanted the results. Make no mistake, people were told certain policy would lead to businesses leaving these areas resulting in <thing> deserts. Voters voted for it anyway.

josephcsible 4y ago
If this only harmed the people who voted for it, then I'd have no problem with it. The problem is that it's also harming all of the people who voted for the opposite but lost.
qwerpy 4y ago
I’d be fine with this as long as people then don’t decry the eventual <thing> deserts as discriminatory.
- factsarelolz 4y ago

mixmastamyk 4y ago

What is the real liability to apprehend when someone is attempting to steal a large amount of merch?

bombcar 4y ago
You delegate and subdivide. I get a gang together and each person steals $50 at a time, no more; if they get caught they get let go or it’s very minor. You collect the materials and farm them off to Amazon.

ransom1538 4y ago

I have no idea how a prosecutor can take down these organized rings. The entire method prosecutors use for say exotic drugs, guns, etc: "Ok we have you for 5 years here, who do you work for, make these phone calls, we can get your sentence down to parole". This allows prosecutors to work their way up. But if a prosecutor is sitting in front of a low level shop lifter - who gets out that day - i don't see any prosecutor leverage.

prvit 4y ago
- TillE 4y ago
  Without American cop show bluster, without pretrial detention except for serious crimes, and without lengthy prison sentences.
  - prvit 4y ago
    Mostly, except pretrial detention for minor crimes is unfortunately still not that uncommon in Europe. The lack of bail often makes this worse, a weird obsession with “fairness” forces us to continue locking up people with sufficient assets to insure against absconding. Poor people can’t afford bail? Better make everyone else suffer too.
    - codedokode 4y ago
      It is unfair indeed. A fair solution would be to improve conditions for everyone so that they can live in comfortable conditions before trial.
    - Kbelicius 4y ago
      So what you are basically saying is that poor people should suffer more for committing the same crime as someone rich.
      - 4y ago