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You can tackle a problem from multiple directions. So while direct prosecution is important, cutting off a method for converting stolen goods to money is also i

You can tackle a problem from multiple directions. So while direct prosecution is important, cutting off a method for converting stolen goods to money is also important. As soon as that method become unprofitable, the activity will either stop or switch to something else.

subradios 4y ago
Regulating legitimate business activity out of existence to support progressive prosecutors ideas about shoplifting and street crime is the opposite of a solution.
- ohbleek 4y ago
  Your comment is not supported by the information in the article. Quite the opposite.
- tehwebguy 4y ago
  Actually you are both wrong :) Regulating away legitimate secondary markets to sell on leaves us all paying higher prices. If brands and retailers believe it’s really retail theft causing all of this I invite them to track their goods better and run sting operations. I guarantee this type of money is going out the side door a truckload at a time, not the front door stuffed into someone’s shirt. But the “progressive prosecutor problem” is a made up lie. Even in San Francisco where a DA recall vote actually succeeded it was obvious (and immediately proven[0]) that SFPD were actually just refusing to respond to calls: https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/brooke-jenkins-sf-policing-17550839.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/brooke-jenkins-sf-...
- ryan_lane 4y ago
  Knowing your suppliers and that their goods are legitimate is a pretty basic function of a business, and calling people progressive to enforce that is a bit strange. Amazon isn't a pawn shop. They have a lot of choice when it comes to dealing with known businesses.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    > Amazon isn't a pawn shop Right, pawn shops are held to a higher standard. They have a relationship with the local police and are made to keep records. Amazon is a better fence than your average pawn shop.
  - subradios 4y ago
    It is a valuable activity that Amazon and eBay will ship any product to anyone at a fair price with a minimum of obligatory hoop jumping. The more pressure they receive from the public and regulators to put a stop to those dastardly shoplifters, the more room Nike has to stop people from selling Nike shoes without a badge of certification from Nike.
    - ryan_lane 4y ago
      Selling stolen goods hurts everyone, which is why it's a crime. It hurts the companies being stolen from, it hurts competing businesses who have a hard time competing legally, it hurts consumers, who get reduced choice due to reduced competition, and it hurts communities when their local chains shut down because organized crime has a place to fence their goods. It's mind boggling that folks are defending the ability to sell stolen goods, while wanting to harshly punish petty theft.
      - UncleEntity 4y ago
        > It's mind boggling that folks are defending the ability to sell stolen goods, while wanting to harshly punish petty theft. I’m not seeing anyone defending selling stolen goods just saying it’s nearly impossible to tell where the goods come from. Product gets refused for various reasons and the trucking companies aren’t really in the business of selling goods so they just get rid of it. I’ve seen them refuse a whole pallet because one box was run into by a forklift before. Sometimes they tell you where to take it, sometimes they tell you to just get rid of it (usually only if it’s a couple cases) and if it’s not something you particularly want you just find some random person who does want it or a dumpster. Not to mention all the other cases people have explained in this thread.
- jrumbut 4y ago
  Selling stolen goods isn't a legitimate business activity.
  - kortilla 4y ago
    Stolen goods don’t come with a “stolen organically” label.
  - prvit 4y ago
    Selling goods is a legitimate business activity.
    - wstuartcl 4y ago
      Yes -- but we are not talking about that we are talking about selling goods for which you have no record of purchase and obtained through theft. You are taking a pretty bit straw man here -- is your claim that there is no way to enforce procedures to curb stolen goods while selling other goods? I think every other seller that has been used as a fence in history would beg to differ -- just go to your local pawn shop.
      - prvit 4y ago
        These are criminals, they can install microsoft office and create fake proof of purchase. Completely pointless idea.
ars 4y ago
How exactly do you plan to do with without also blocking a regular person from doing price arbitrage? Or selling extra items they have in the house? There's tons of stuff on Amazon that goes for more than retail, and people buy it for the delivery convenience. And there's nothing wrong with that.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
This is one of those statements that feels good when no specifics are on the table, but if it was ever implemented we’d be seeing countless HN stories complaining about how Amazon is requiring sellers to provide too much documentation or closing their accounts for suspected dealing in stolen goods or something. Heavy handed regulation always sounds better in hypothetical perfect knowledge scenarios, but kind of sucks for everyone in the real world.
- _carbyau_ 4y ago
  Simply trying to rent a house here in Australia requires submitting a goldmine for identity theft. ID's, bank statements, workplace statements to prove you have a job and the list goes on. And that simply gets you an application. No guarantee of being picked. I have zero problems with a business having to prove - to whatever degree - they are legit. Finance institutions have a KYC thing. Maybe Amazon needs a KYTrader.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    AFAIK in the US you can buy/sell a house with an anonymous LLC. It's not clear to me you would even need an ID in the process, although that may vary by state. Definitely wouldn't need the rest of the stuff, except the money.
    - toast0 4y ago
      Buying a house doesn't require much ID. Borrowing money for it probably requires KYC, but maybe not exactly ID. Selling a house usually wants a notarized signature and notaries check ID (or are supposed to).
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    In NYC, to rent an apartment requires you to submit your tax returns. Unbelievable.

subradios 4y ago

Regulating legitimate business activity out of existence to support progressive prosecutors ideas about shoplifting and street crime is the opposite of a solution.

ohbleek 4y ago
Your comment is not supported by the information in the article. Quite the opposite.
tehwebguy 4y ago
Actually you are both wrong :) Regulating away legitimate secondary markets to sell on leaves us all paying higher prices. If brands and retailers believe it’s really retail theft causing all of this I invite them to track their goods better and run sting operations. I guarantee this type of money is going out the side door a truckload at a time, not the front door stuffed into someone’s shirt. But the “progressive prosecutor problem” is a made up lie. Even in San Francisco where a DA recall vote actually succeeded it was obvious (and immediately proven[0]) that SFPD were actually just refusing to respond to calls: https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/brooke-jenkins-sf-policing-17550839.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/brooke-jenkins-sf-...
ryan_lane 4y ago
Knowing your suppliers and that their goods are legitimate is a pretty basic function of a business, and calling people progressive to enforce that is a bit strange. Amazon isn't a pawn shop. They have a lot of choice when it comes to dealing with known businesses.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  > Amazon isn't a pawn shop Right, pawn shops are held to a higher standard. They have a relationship with the local police and are made to keep records. Amazon is a better fence than your average pawn shop.
- subradios 4y ago
  It is a valuable activity that Amazon and eBay will ship any product to anyone at a fair price with a minimum of obligatory hoop jumping. The more pressure they receive from the public and regulators to put a stop to those dastardly shoplifters, the more room Nike has to stop people from selling Nike shoes without a badge of certification from Nike.
  - ryan_lane 4y ago
    Selling stolen goods hurts everyone, which is why it's a crime. It hurts the companies being stolen from, it hurts competing businesses who have a hard time competing legally, it hurts consumers, who get reduced choice due to reduced competition, and it hurts communities when their local chains shut down because organized crime has a place to fence their goods. It's mind boggling that folks are defending the ability to sell stolen goods, while wanting to harshly punish petty theft.
    - UncleEntity 4y ago
      > It's mind boggling that folks are defending the ability to sell stolen goods, while wanting to harshly punish petty theft. I’m not seeing anyone defending selling stolen goods just saying it’s nearly impossible to tell where the goods come from. Product gets refused for various reasons and the trucking companies aren’t really in the business of selling goods so they just get rid of it. I’ve seen them refuse a whole pallet because one box was run into by a forklift before. Sometimes they tell you where to take it, sometimes they tell you to just get rid of it (usually only if it’s a couple cases) and if it’s not something you particularly want you just find some random person who does want it or a dumpster. Not to mention all the other cases people have explained in this thread.
jrumbut 4y ago
Selling stolen goods isn't a legitimate business activity.
- kortilla 4y ago
  Stolen goods don’t come with a “stolen organically” label.
- prvit 4y ago
  Selling goods is a legitimate business activity.
  - wstuartcl 4y ago
    Yes -- but we are not talking about that we are talking about selling goods for which you have no record of purchase and obtained through theft. You are taking a pretty bit straw man here -- is your claim that there is no way to enforce procedures to curb stolen goods while selling other goods? I think every other seller that has been used as a fence in history would beg to differ -- just go to your local pawn shop.
    - prvit 4y ago
      These are criminals, they can install microsoft office and create fake proof of purchase. Completely pointless idea.

ars 4y ago

How exactly do you plan to do with without also blocking a regular person from doing price arbitrage? Or selling extra items they have in the house? There's tons of stuff on Amazon that goes for more than retail, and people buy it for the delivery convenience. And there's nothing wrong with that.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

This is one of those statements that feels good when no specifics are on the table, but if it was ever implemented we’d be seeing countless HN stories complaining about how Amazon is requiring sellers to provide too much documentation or closing their accounts for suspected dealing in stolen goods or something. Heavy handed regulation always sounds better in hypothetical perfect knowledge scenarios, but kind of sucks for everyone in the real world.

_carbyau_ 4y ago
Simply trying to rent a house here in Australia requires submitting a goldmine for identity theft. ID's, bank statements, workplace statements to prove you have a job and the list goes on. And that simply gets you an application. No guarantee of being picked. I have zero problems with a business having to prove - to whatever degree - they are legit. Finance institutions have a KYC thing. Maybe Amazon needs a KYTrader.
- notch656a 4y ago
  AFAIK in the US you can buy/sell a house with an anonymous LLC. It's not clear to me you would even need an ID in the process, although that may vary by state. Definitely wouldn't need the rest of the stuff, except the money.
  - toast0 4y ago
    Buying a house doesn't require much ID. Borrowing money for it probably requires KYC, but maybe not exactly ID. Selling a house usually wants a notarized signature and notaries check ID (or are supposed to).
- WalterBright 4y ago
  In NYC, to rent an apartment requires you to submit your tax returns. Unbelievable.