6 ms·

What's amazing is how no one is honing in on the real reason this is happening, the DA's office combined with state laws make it hard to bail people and send pe

What's amazing is how no one is honing in on the real reason this is happening, the DA's office combined with state laws make it hard to bail people and send people to prison. That's the decision made, and it's referred to as the carceral system. It's something viewed as urgently needing reform, and that's how the progressive DA's operate. Look at Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan DA's program (https://www.manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Day-One-Fact-sheet-Final-1.6.22.pdf https://www.manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Day-O...) If cops are standing around doing nothing, it's because it's pointless to engage with a suspect physically, risking yourself while by the way people around whip out their phones to video you, if the suspect will be released on their own recognizance on some lowered charge, if the charge isn't dropped anyway. You can also add, if you want to criticize cops, that they're civil workers at the end of the day, and most are in for the benefits, such as pension and healthcare, rather than pretending to be superheroes or vigilantes.

nkrisc 4y ago
The real reason is mentioned I the article: it’s absurdly easy to sell bulk stolen goods online. As long as that’s possible, there will always be someone stealing it, no matter how many people you lock up.
- joenot443 4y ago
  Why is it specifically a problem here in New York then, but wherever else I go in the country I don't see things nearly as locked up? Geography presumably shouldn't be a factor if shoplifters are only selling their loot online.
  - klooney 4y ago
    It's like that in San Francisco and Oakland too, although the suburbs in the bay are mostly much more chill.
  - zuminator 4y ago
    Population density makes it easier to hide in a crowd and also easier to recruit teams of shoplifters. The estensive subway system in Manhattan makes it easy to escape underground. Due to traffic, police response times may be longer. Manhattan has dozens of pharmacies in the business areas, which makes it easier to hit several stores in succession and get a substantial haul.
- mancerayder 4y ago
  That sounds like we're pointing to an external force (the ease of selling stolen goods online), as if it were some sort of magnetic draw, an irresistible temptation. What's tempting is that there's a lack of punishment. Do you propose we lecture to thieves to dissuade them? It's like arguing people run red lights because they get distracted due to phone notifications and so maybe we shouldn't punish them with points that could lead to a license suspension.
  - evancox100 4y ago
    > It's like arguing people run red lights because they get distracted due to phone notifications and so maybe we shouldn't punish them with points that could lead to a license suspension. Don’t give them any ideas!
  - nkrisc 4y ago
    > Do you propose we lecture to thieves to dissuade them? No. > as if it were some sort of magnetic draw, an irresistible temptation. The shoplifting itself is committed by individuals and individual cases of shoplifting should be a reasonably light punishment. It’s not murder. But a single person is not shoplifting $300,000 worth of merchandise. There’s two culprits: the ease of selling vast quantities of stolen items and from which follows the organized crime rings that facilitate it. If you want to stop it, you need to crack down on both the fences (eBay, Amazon, etc.) and the organizers of these shoplifting sprees. Sure, punish the shoplifters too, but going after them won’t end it - there will always be someone in need of easy cash who can be recruited in their place.
standardUser 4y ago
Do you honestly think shoplifters should be locked in a cage?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- concordDance 4y ago
  Ideally they'd be given corporal punishment by perfectly morally upstanding cops. This is cheap, fast, doesn't stop them working and doesn't put them in an environment where they're around lots of hardened convicts. I leave the problem of getting perfectly upstanding policemen who will not abuse their powers as an exercise to the reader.
  - vanilla_nut 4y ago
    Oh, I got this one! Just replace the cops with objective, completely fair AI! That will surely solve all of the problems and definitely hasn't been extensively worried about in science fiction for decades.
- mancerayder 4y ago
  Certainly not for one offense, or even two. Someone who behaves outside the law consistently needs to be dissuaded though. What suggestions do you have?
- Vaslo 4y ago
  What punishment do you suggest then? The unacceptable answer is none.
  - standardUser 4y ago
    The fact that the only solution you see is "punishment" is exactly the problem. No reasonable punishment will stop these crimes. Period. And unreasonable punishments, like locking a human in a cage without rehabilitation for years of their life, only make the problem worse and cost us a ridiculous amount of money (and humanity). So maybe take a step back, or five, and think about the causes of petty crimes and why they happen here more than other nations.
brutusborn 4y ago
I wish that DA had added some references to the studies that support less incarceration. It just doesn't make sense to me, he admits that Manhattan is the worst burrough for crime, then states that it is over incarcerating. How does one determine that? Also he mentions social programs as an alternative to incarceration, but are these programs actually available? The crime rate suggests they are not, so reducing incarceration may be counterproductive until they are better established.
- mancerayder 4y ago
  >It just doesn't make sense to me, he admits that Manhattan is the worst burrough for crime, then states that it is over incarcerating. How does one determine that? It's tied in this foundational belief (and it's mentioned as one of the points) that incarceration leads to more recidivism. How one can reach this conclusion by taking overall violent crime stats into account (also all but one out of seven felony types are up in NYC) requires some logical legwork. The fact that increases of petty crime and increases of serious crime are both happening yearly should be a red flag that makes us question the policy decisions, which again are based on not 'over policing' or 'over incarcerating'. It could be the two are connected, but you'd be accused of Broken Windows Theory. It's hard not to see a general chaos as being contributing. The plexiglass seems like a symbol of that to many people.
  - balderdash 4y ago
    seems like the problem is not too much incarceration, but the wrong type of incarceration (i.e. not having prison be a dangerous and dehumanizing experience). if you didn't have a broken prison system that leads to recidivism, then you could safely use incarceration as a deterrent to crime
    - brutusborn 4y ago
      I think you're spot on. Well designed prisons should not institutionalize people. In my mind the ideal situation would be prisons that act like adult schools that teach how to best live on the straight and narrow. Though based on the public curriculum of my state, I'm not confident that current governments have enough talented people to make this a reality. Maybe somewhere someday.

nkrisc 4y ago

The real reason is mentioned I the article: it’s absurdly easy to sell bulk stolen goods online. As long as that’s possible, there will always be someone stealing it, no matter how many people you lock up.

joenot443 4y ago
Why is it specifically a problem here in New York then, but wherever else I go in the country I don't see things nearly as locked up? Geography presumably shouldn't be a factor if shoplifters are only selling their loot online.
- klooney 4y ago
  It's like that in San Francisco and Oakland too, although the suburbs in the bay are mostly much more chill.
- zuminator 4y ago
  Population density makes it easier to hide in a crowd and also easier to recruit teams of shoplifters. The estensive subway system in Manhattan makes it easy to escape underground. Due to traffic, police response times may be longer. Manhattan has dozens of pharmacies in the business areas, which makes it easier to hit several stores in succession and get a substantial haul.
mancerayder 4y ago
That sounds like we're pointing to an external force (the ease of selling stolen goods online), as if it were some sort of magnetic draw, an irresistible temptation. What's tempting is that there's a lack of punishment. Do you propose we lecture to thieves to dissuade them? It's like arguing people run red lights because they get distracted due to phone notifications and so maybe we shouldn't punish them with points that could lead to a license suspension.
- evancox100 4y ago
  > It's like arguing people run red lights because they get distracted due to phone notifications and so maybe we shouldn't punish them with points that could lead to a license suspension. Don’t give them any ideas!
- nkrisc 4y ago
  > Do you propose we lecture to thieves to dissuade them? No. > as if it were some sort of magnetic draw, an irresistible temptation. The shoplifting itself is committed by individuals and individual cases of shoplifting should be a reasonably light punishment. It’s not murder. But a single person is not shoplifting $300,000 worth of merchandise. There’s two culprits: the ease of selling vast quantities of stolen items and from which follows the organized crime rings that facilitate it. If you want to stop it, you need to crack down on both the fences (eBay, Amazon, etc.) and the organizers of these shoplifting sprees. Sure, punish the shoplifters too, but going after them won’t end it - there will always be someone in need of easy cash who can be recruited in their place.

standardUser 4y ago

Do you honestly think shoplifters should be locked in a cage?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
concordDance 4y ago
Ideally they'd be given corporal punishment by perfectly morally upstanding cops. This is cheap, fast, doesn't stop them working and doesn't put them in an environment where they're around lots of hardened convicts. I leave the problem of getting perfectly upstanding policemen who will not abuse their powers as an exercise to the reader.
- vanilla_nut 4y ago
  Oh, I got this one! Just replace the cops with objective, completely fair AI! That will surely solve all of the problems and definitely hasn't been extensively worried about in science fiction for decades.
mancerayder 4y ago
Certainly not for one offense, or even two. Someone who behaves outside the law consistently needs to be dissuaded though. What suggestions do you have?
Vaslo 4y ago
What punishment do you suggest then? The unacceptable answer is none.
- standardUser 4y ago
  The fact that the only solution you see is "punishment" is exactly the problem. No reasonable punishment will stop these crimes. Period. And unreasonable punishments, like locking a human in a cage without rehabilitation for years of their life, only make the problem worse and cost us a ridiculous amount of money (and humanity). So maybe take a step back, or five, and think about the causes of petty crimes and why they happen here more than other nations.

brutusborn 4y ago

I wish that DA had added some references to the studies that support less incarceration. It just doesn't make sense to me, he admits that Manhattan is the worst burrough for crime, then states that it is over incarcerating. How does one determine that? Also he mentions social programs as an alternative to incarceration, but are these programs actually available? The crime rate suggests they are not, so reducing incarceration may be counterproductive until they are better established.

mancerayder 4y ago
>It just doesn't make sense to me, he admits that Manhattan is the worst burrough for crime, then states that it is over incarcerating. How does one determine that? It's tied in this foundational belief (and it's mentioned as one of the points) that incarceration leads to more recidivism. How one can reach this conclusion by taking overall violent crime stats into account (also all but one out of seven felony types are up in NYC) requires some logical legwork. The fact that increases of petty crime and increases of serious crime are both happening yearly should be a red flag that makes us question the policy decisions, which again are based on not 'over policing' or 'over incarcerating'. It could be the two are connected, but you'd be accused of Broken Windows Theory. It's hard not to see a general chaos as being contributing. The plexiglass seems like a symbol of that to many people.
- balderdash 4y ago
  seems like the problem is not too much incarceration, but the wrong type of incarceration (i.e. not having prison be a dangerous and dehumanizing experience). if you didn't have a broken prison system that leads to recidivism, then you could safely use incarceration as a deterrent to crime
  - brutusborn 4y ago
    I think you're spot on. Well designed prisons should not institutionalize people. In my mind the ideal situation would be prisons that act like adult schools that teach how to best live on the straight and narrow. Though based on the public curriculum of my state, I'm not confident that current governments have enough talented people to make this a reality. Maybe somewhere someday.